Episode 88: BC Housing Digitally Accelerated Standardized Housing (DASH)

BC Housing’s new DASH program links digital planning, standardized designs, and off-site construction to speed up housing delivery. Dr Esther De Vos (BC Housing) and Master Residential Builder Chris Hill explain how DASH helps build faster and smarter across BC.

Listen to “Ep 88: BC Housing and the Digitally Accelerated Standardized Housing (DASH)” on Spreaker.

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DR. ESTHER DE VOS | Executive Director, BC HOUSING 

Dr. Esther de Vos is the Executive Director of Research at BC Housing, leading the organization’s evidence-based work on housing policy, tenant wellbeing, and program development. She brings more than 15 years of experience in public policy and applied research, supported by a Doctor of Social Sciences from Royal Roads University, a Master of Public Administration from the University of Victoria, and law and arts degrees from the University of Alberta. Her work focuses on research that supports informed decision-making and stronger housing outcomes across the province.

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Ep_88: BC Housing Digitally Accelerated Standardized Housing (DASH) www.acceleratedhousing.ca

BC Government DASH Media Release:

BIV Coverage of DASH

0:00:03

Mike:

Welcome back to Measure Twice Cut Once. My name is Mike. I’m one of the hosts here. And every time we have an episode, I learn something really new, really cool, and I’m just about ready to start building my own house. Right, Jennifer?

0:00:16

Jennifer-Lee

Yeah, and I’m Jennifer Lee, and I like to keep things on track as always. But before we dive into that, make sure you follow us on your favorite podcast platform and YouTube so you don’t miss some of the great stories of Measure Twice Cut Once like today.

0:00:30

Mike

And not to mention the fact you can watch me attempt to build a house miserably and leave it to the experts. We’re here today with a very important conversation. Things that happen in terms of housing in our province don’t happen by accident. It is a result of very, very careful planning and a very specific organization that helps us in this industry meet the needs of today and tomorrow. We’re going to be talking about a bold and new approach to housing. and something everyone should be aware of in BC and even outside of BC because a lot of what we do shapes the conversation in other parts of North America. BC Housing’s DASH program.

It’s changing how homes are designed, approved and built by connecting digital tools with prefabrications and systems thinking.

0:01:23

Jennnifer-Lee

I can’t wait to get into that more and learn more about DASH. We are joined today by Dr. Esther De Vos, Executive Director of Research at BC Housing, and Chris Hill, who’s been on here before, Master Residential Builder who serves on boards such as Safer Homes BC and Small Housing BC to explain how DASH could help deliver homes faster, smarter, and more sustainably. Let’s get started. Well, welcome both of you.

0:02:01

Mike

This is really exciting because BC Housing is a big part of all of our conversations and we love what you guys are doing and we’ve never had a chance to have this conversation directly with you. So this is very exciting. We’re going to talk to Chris in a moment, but Esther, I don’t know you.  I’ve never met you until today. And I’d like to fix that. Can you tell us a little about yourself, about how you got into this industry in the first place and how you see this industry evolving as a result of some of the things that we’re doing and talking about today?

0:02:08

Esther

Sure. Well, thank you for having us to talk about DASH today. I come from Alberta. I’m just coming up to my four year anniversary with BC Housing, and we have a research centre which has a mandate on the technical stream of research under the Homeowner Protection Act to work with the residential construction industry and licensed builders to create more knowledge, do more research around different ways of building and really mobilize that knowledge like we’re doing today. So I come to this as a social researcher, so I don’t have a technical background, but really excited because you can’t really talk about housing just about people or buildings.

0:02:59

Mike

You have to talk about it together. What works for people is also a good built environment and vice versa. So what’s your background that led you to doing this then, right?

Because typically we have builders and designers, Your background’s a little different.

Your journey to this industry is a little different. Can you tell us a little about that? Sure. Well, really, the credit goes to the team that makes up the technical research team. So Denise Ionesco and Cindy Moran from BC Housing specifically, and then a number of our development and asset strategies team members who were part of this from the beginning. And over the last couple of years, Denise and the rest of the team have made huge imprints on me on the importance of all these different conversations about building typologies and materials.

I can now sort of explain what BIM is building information modeling at a very high level so as soon as someone asked me a technical question I have to bring Denise out to answer that.

But yeah, and it’s just really become really important to look at how we can address the pressures that exist for the industry and for people across British Columbia and Canada with the housing crisis. And so looking at opportunities to really make a difference and innovate in this space.

0:04:18

Jennifer-Lee

Wow, you do a lot. I’m like, I don’t even know how to react to it.

You’re so great. Chris, we’ve met you before. Can you give us a little update on yourself, what you’re doing and how you’re associated now with BC Housing? Yeah, thank you. It’s good to be back here. So I’ve obviously pivoted a little bit.

0:04:33

Chris

I can now officially say I’m a recovering custom home builder and no longer building houses. But my journey through that process, being a professional accountant and on various pieces, and then a focus in the last five years on offsite construction, prefabrication, and really kind of a search for productivity. has led me to a role within the DASH program. We kind of call ourselves the Pathfinders team. There’s eight or nine of us in that group that have been sort of shaping where this can go over the last year or so. And my role specifically has been around the prefab supply chain. So working with the existing manufacturers in BC and how they can support this initiative from a capacity, from an execution side of it.

0:05:21

Jennifer-Lee

And what is the DASH program? Because to me, I’m just thinking of like back in the old school recipes, like a DASH of salt.

0:05:43

Esther

Yes. So not quite the salt type thing. DASH actually stands for Digitally Standard Standardized Accelerated Housing. I’m always really great at remembering the acronyms after I get off microphone.

But in this case what we’re really doing is bringing together a platform by which you can go through the entire workflow or aspects of the workflow to use standardized designs from a catalog that are permit ready. and essentially allow you to design your building on a platform with the land use planning information underpinning that platform. So you can get real -time feedback. It can make suggestions on how to optimize your design for density and things like that. And then once you have landed on your design, we use BIM as underpinning all of this as well.

0:06:20

Esther

So building information modeling, which essentially allows you to create a 3D digital twin of your building. So that allows you to really understand how your building is going to look and what it will appear as. And then you can take your design and essentially translate that after you’ve got your approvals into a list of components or kit of parts that you order from off -site manufacturers. So if you think about it, as Lego, which is one of my favorite analogies that was introduced to me by a colleague. If you think of like the two pieces and the three pieces all look the same, they might be different colors, but allows you to essentially build your own building however you want to, but those pieces are standardized. So that’s what we’re talking about when we’re talking about standardized design.

We’re not talking about one house or two houses or buildings. I guess I should say we’re really focused on three to six stories, multi -unit buildings in this case. But it’s not just one standard look.

You can really customize and really design it as you go, just using the standardized parts.

0:07:24

Jennifer-Lee

So it’s not like the Vancouver special that was like everyone looks like. Except for maybe a different balcony. Yeah. Yeah. And you can call them out as you’re driving by. Sometimes you use different railings.

0:07:35

Mike

So I’ve got a question about this. So we are clearly in the middle of a housing crisis, not just here in BC, not just in Canada, but all of North America. We’re dealing with this challenge. It’s a result of supply and demand issues and cost issues as well. How will this program help us as an industry? And more importantly, that person who’s sitting and watching this going, how am I ever going to get to my own home? How are we going to be able to help them achieve some of their goals and address some of the current gaps in the model we’ve been operating under for a very long time?

0:08:06

Esther

Sure, well, maybe I can start and then Chris can add to this. From my perspective, what I see is we’ve been able to, with all of the different voices at the table, which, first of all, is a big part of the success of this, is having people representing municipal governments, the offsite manufacturers, the architects, engineers, all together at the same table to talk about what are the different pain points in this process. And this really allows you to weave and go through that workflow in a way that is more streamlined. So as municipalities are also going through their own journey to digitize bylaws and land use planning, they will be better enabled to digitize the approval process and the standardized designs can then be more efficiently approved. They can also be done by a person.

It doesn’t have to be AI because it’s one and the same.

So a wall is a wall is a wall. It doesn’t matter where that wall goes. That wall component is the same so they can check it off a lot easier. So we’re talking about addressing the pain points during the permit approval process, but also then moving through design process, it allows the architects to not have to do the still important grunt work, but really they can focus on the design aesthetics and where they want to put the walls and how big the rooms need to be. Because the computer system and the platform allow to help do what they would take days to do, and some of the calculations the computer can do it much faster in terms of seconds or minutes. And then translating that into off -site manufacturing. So because it’s open source and it’s public, you know, public commons, there’s no proprietary sort of design to the components.

And that’s a really important piece because that means that you can go to any manufacturer and say, here’s wall component A that I need. So you can also look at economies of scale. So as a builder, you can order your wall components for more than one site at a time. of time. And it essentially reduces the time that you’re carrying your carrying costs as you’re going through all of these processes and then have your components be brought to site and be built because they’re they’re coming in flat packed. Chris, I don’t know if you have any more technical.

0:10:23

Chris

I think from my perspective as a builder and this attempt, I mean, I think it still truly is an attempt at offsite construction and prefabrication early engagement. Everyone’s building something different. And what we’re putting through these factories is still very custom. And so I think a big part of the DASH has been what can be standardized, what can be made consistent and really dive deeper into an industrialized process. So external walls, kitchenettes. We started to really discover that the buildings themselves are always going to need an architect and there’s always a level of design to fit into the community.

So these aren’t cookie cutter. We don’t we want livability. We want happy cities. We want these elements to really enrich our lives. And this idea of like cookie cutter, that same thing over and over again is can be problematic. But if we look at a home, every home has a kitchen, every home has a bathroom, there’s a couple of bedrooms and some living space.

And so let’s look very closely at the design guides from BC Housing. What are they expecting out of these buildings? And what is the unit that we can really standardize and optimize for? Then let’s take it to the manufacturers and say, hey, what can you build? Let’s take the structural engineers, let’s optimize this really effectively. So it’s a really about a process step.

And I think, Mike, to your comment, we’re at this strange point where construction costs are extremely high. Land value is extremely high. The idea of affordability is it’s almost laughable at this point on new construction. This is a strong effort of stabilization through standardization, through process. So things like early engagement, bringing the appropriate people to the start of these processes. And it’s already engaged.

And you’ve seen it, I think I can say recently, the RFI from BC Housing. It’s been an engagement with manufacturers, with general contractors, to start the process early. I think I’ve said to you guys this integrated design process or early engagement is so critical. The other one that I want to highlight that Esther touched on was economies of scale. I like to call it a portfolio approach. So right now we’re really thinking on this project by project basis.

0:12:35

And that naturally creates something that’s custom. If we start to look at a portfolio, a number of buildings, if we’re going to repeat something, because that’s the point of standardizing. Where can we do that 10 times, 20 times, 30 times? And what can be repeated? And then you take that to a factory or your manufacturing sector and they can produce something and they can find those efficiencies. So it’s this constant push for productivity.

It comes to procurement of how do we source consistent teams? How do we give our factories enough business? They’re all under capacity right now. I had a conversation earlier today with someone in Quebec. We’re running at 20 to 30 % in our offsite manufacturing sector in a housing crisis, which is a good head scratcher in itself. So how do we engage?

Build Canada Homes is doing a lot of work on that. That’s where that conversation was going this morning.

And BC Housing has taken a really strong initiative with that. to put this forward. Let’s look at these things. Let’s engage with BIM.

Let’s use the digital assets that we can develop early. Let’s engage with manufacturers, engage these pieces to change the process a little bit, but get housing out the door.

Jennifer-Lee

So just to clarify something, because obviously these areas already pre -designed. When it comes to the role of an architect, you said you still can have one. Is that just so they can like put everything together, all the different pieces? Like what is left for creativity wise?

0:14:00

Chris

I would say a significant portion of the creativity is there. These are part three projects. They are going to require a stamped architect under AIBC laws. They are going to have to do a full review of everything that’s been done. What we’re doing is providing a contextual starting place that is zoned appropriately. It meets BC code and it meets the BC building, BC Housing guideline.

So those three elements, we’ll call it the grunt work. That’s typically the, that’s not design. That’s making sure that’s a checklist on a form. Now you’ve got this blueprint that you can mold shift. One of the architects I talked to, and I really liked his analogy, they feel their role is a lot about fit. So you’ve got a lot, and their job is to make sure a building fits.

And a lot of these It’d be great if every lot was perfectly square and we could jump perfectly square buildings on it and pump them out of a factory. That doesn’t exist. So how do you make a building fit? How does it interact with the street?

How is the people going to interact with it coming and going? Is there a noise issue with a subway train right there? Where’s the sun? Where are all these things? There’s still a huge amount of work and design to make those buildings works for architects. A lot of the pre-work that DASH is doing within the standardization is giving them early engagement with manufacturers, early engagement with detail, structural systems, all these pieces that they can then utilize and mold to where they want to see the design go.

0:15:22

Esther

If I can just add something on to that. from an architect standpoint as well, I think not just what the site provides, but also the livability of the homes for people there. So who’s going to be inhabiting those homes? Who’s going to be the residents? Do you need to account for much larger families that need much larger kitchen spaces or public spaces and the bedrooms can be much smaller because that’s tends to be the people who are going to be living in and that’s how they live.

So looking at being able to really design for the people moving in, and focus on those livability aspects, the sustainability, in addition to what the site -specific needs are.

Mike

It sounds like a great program, obviously, for the construction community. Can I, as a homeowner, access it to see what is possible on my property? So it feels like, to me, it provides a set of guardrails so we know what we can and we can’t do when we proceed from there with our architect. Is there a version that we can use as homeowners to see what we can do on our own property?

Or do we have to work with a construction professional on that level?

0:16:33

Esther

I mean, it’s open to everybody, so you can go on to the website and make an account.

Right now, the blueprint and the designs are really focused on multi -unit family buildings from three to six storey. That’s not to say that we won’t have smaller lot size designs being introduced onto it later. So it might be a little limiting for the homeowner who is looking at like, how can I take my single detached house and turn that into four units, for instance, under the new zoning rules, but we’ll get there. That is the plan. Are you building a six -story, 100 -unit building on your lot? Because it’d be perfect for that.

0:17:02

Mike

I am currently having a conversation with my municipality whether I can… This is one of the challenges. We’ve had Ravi Kalanam when he was the housing minister. We’ve had amazing people in here. And I tried to get approval to build four units, max out my height, 90 % of ALR, because I was going to go net zero.

And the city’s like, no. So there’s that disconnect between our aspirational hopes and what actually is. And I could see this, for me going back to them and going, no, this is all allowed. This is pre -done, right? So I think this is a newer program.

And with every new program, there’s growth and there’s evolution. And I think this is going to be a very powerful tool to help us all get on the same page. We’re all moving ahead. It’s just a question of how fast we all choose to move.

It’s going to be easier if we all move there together.

This is why this is such a cool program.

0:17:57

Esther

Yeah, and I think the coordination with municipalities and local governments are going to be really critical for this. One, for them to be able to say, yes, these designs are permit ready in our community, but also to make these conversations available in their own communities with their planning department so that you guys are literally talking about the same apples to the same apples. As I say, it’s not just apples to oranges, it’s like Macintosh apples to Gala apples. You really have to sometimes get right down into the nitty gritty to know that you’re talking about the same thing.

Mike

Currently we’re talking about pineapples and bananas, so.

Esther

Fair enough.

0:18:37

Chris

I’d add to the municipal conversation that, so Metro Vancouver has been doing some early work with, obviously within their municipalities. Originally 11 municipalities put their hand up in a room and said, we want to engage in the exploration of pre -zoning of social housing. And that really put this program with, along with BC Housing into this typology of a six story wood frame. And that has been the primary focus. There is that is the core nucleus of what we’ve sort of propelled forward on. There is lots of conversation of where that expands to.

I think there’s a real conversation about going larger. to six to 10 story mass timber is the next to a solid typology. And then I think there’s a good typology of for the homeowner. The multiplex is the part nine space. I think gentle density. Maybe I’m because I sit on the board of small housing, but I think there’s a very strong play for that as well.

And if we look at the process, there’s no reason that DASH thinking And the process could not apply to that. It’s just you got to, you got to focus somewhere at the start, and then build from there. And so that’s where a big piece of this program has been. I’m going to, I’m going to call out in a positive way, there’s been some really solid municipal engagement. Kelowna has done some great work early on. There’s some work going on there.

The City of North Vancouver put forward some offsite construction stuff that’s really good on how to get permitting through faster to start projects earlier. I know there’s some engagement with Richmond now on these sort of concepts.

And that’s just a few of them. There’s lots of other examples that are building off this momentum.

And I think it’s really critical that you get that engagement. It’s the same with the early engagement of construction.

Let’s get early engagement with municipalities, get their feedback.

How do we support those municipalities to remove the red tape, the problems, the confusion is a big part of this as well.

0:20:29

Jennifer-Lee

And a few other benefits to this program, too, is the fact that homes can be delivered faster.

And I heard there’s some cost efficiency as well.

0:20:40

Chris

Yeah, that’s that’s always a fun one. And I get him because I’m an accountant. That’s why I asked you that. No, no, no. It’s good. It’s numbers.

So I think. Cost is always a difficult one in construction, and I think there’s a very strong regional context to adjust to. And so I think we have to be realistic in that and timing. These projects still take some time. So first off, timing.

If we have an industrialized process and a specific thing, I think there’s a real possibility to cut 30 to 40 percent off our timeline. And that’s what we’ve been sort of projecting. Maybe that doesn’t happen on the first demonstration project, but I think that’s an achievable goal, especially when you start repeating. You ask any tradesperson, any factory, any architect, any builder, hey, can you do that again? Can you do that five times?

And what’s going to happen? They’re going to get more efficient at it. So I think that’s part of this efficiency that we have to take a perspective that’s not individual projects. On the cost base, I would say the same thing. We are looking at some fairly significant software that does optimization on materials. We’re looking at how do you cut waste?

How do you use the factory? I mean, the reality I think we’re faced with right now in In increasing energy code, increasing seismic code, our light wood frame six story buildings, especially in our highly populated areas that happens to be Vancouver and Victoria, are very difficult to build. And I struggle to call them light wood frame. They are on -site NLT, nail laminated timber. We’re looking at massive build -ups in Brock. So we need to change.

We have a cost escalation and a productivity issue. We don’t have the bodies on site. They’re getting more and more expensive. This is pushing efficiency onto insights.

It’s looking at innovative approaches to make air tightness work, to make thermal bridges going away and have insulation and have quality homes that last a long time. So that is the cost perspective that I think is really critical in this conversation. And it’s repetition.

I’m confident if we see repetition, you’re going to see cost improvements.

That’s just the way the market works. Supply and demand, as you mentioned earlier, Mike.

0:22:37

Mike

Speaking of confident, I’m confident that we have to take a quick break to thank our amazing sponsors and then continue this conversation, which is getting more exciting as we go. So bear with us for two minutes.

We’ll be right back. Great segue. It’s my first day, huh?

0:22:56

Jennifer-Lee

Measure Twice, Cut Once is grateful to our podcast partners, FortisBC, BC Housing and Trail Appliances. Support from our partners helps us share expert knowledge and resources with families looking to build, design and renovate the home right for you. For BC Housing, creating access to housing solutions that meets everybody’s needs is a guiding principle. BC Housing is working with governments, nonprofits, First Nations and residential construction industry members to create practical solutions to BC Housing challenges. To learn more about BC Housing initiatives, programs and services, go to www.BCHousing.org .

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0:24:24

Mike

Welcome back.

As always, we’re very grateful for our sponsors. And it’s very special. One of our people who sponsors us or organizations that sponsor us can also appear on the show, because not only you help us get to this point, but this insight builds on what we’ve been talking about. And I think specifically BC Housing here really helps us tie a bow in a lot of the conversations we’ve had with a sense of where we’re all going and how the thought process has gone into helping us all get there more efficiently. to a lesser degree from what Chris said, my house will be a lot cheaper to build too.

So thank you very much for that.

So the first part of the conversation was about DASH, understanding the DASH, the benefits and everything else. Now, one of the challenges we face in BC is one size doesn’t fit all. Salmon Arm is different than Surrey, is different than Vancouver, is different than Whistler. So we have a lot of different needs in a lot of different communities. How can DASH help support the diversity from municipality to municipality, from geographical region to geographical region, so that we have consistency. Even though we might have to build a different house there, how do we create consistent results across our province?

0:25:32

Esther

Yeah, I think maybe I’ll start answering this one and then Chris can add to it. From my perspective, because we’re talking about standardized components of design and you still need an architect to sort of design it, you can and the system will allow you to play around with the walls thickness to make sure that you have the right R value for the geographic region that you’re in. Make sure that you have the right seismic requirements while designing your building. on the platform.

So you can really understand what the livability needs for the community that you’re building in from both the technical and sort of the desire around, you know, how people live in that community. So when you’re talking about a northern community, people need more space to put stuff because they have a lot of winter gear, a lot of winter sports.

So do you need to build, you know, more storage rooms or things like that?

So Taking that all into consideration, the platform allows you to be really flexible because it is not just a standard, here’s the square three to six story building, and you just take it and move it to wherever. You really have that ability to play with the design to make it work for your community and for your site in particular.

Jennifer-Lee

Yeah, you don’t want it to look awkward. Like I’ve lived up in Prince George, I’ve lived up in Fort St. John, and every community is different. And you gotta remember the lot sizes up there too are a lot bigger as well.

0:27:00

Esther

Yes. And it would be weird in some communities to suddenly be like, here’s your six story building, because that totally exceeds what their housing demand is, in terms of what their population is calling for. But as communities get bigger. One of the other challenges, especially for some smaller communities, that this may be able to answer with slightly larger designs, is when they’re trying to attract industry. Because industry will say, and I don’t mean residential construction industry, you know, like a tech shop or something like that. They’ll say, great, we would love to come, but we’re going to need our workers to be able to live somewhere.

And then the municipality will look and say, well, we don’t have enough housing. And then you sort of in this chicken and egg of like, we want to attract more economic development. but we don’t have the housing here ready enough. So this is one of those ways of being able to pull a lever faster to address that when you’re having those economic development conversations or looking at sort of long -term growth based on your official community plan, for instance, which municipalities are having to do right now.

So it, I think, really allows you and especially as we add more blueprints, and you know, the one to two stories and more multiplexes for a single detached lot, and then starting to go higher, we’ll be able to continue to iterate and meet the needs of all of the communities across BC.

0:28:23

Jennifer-Lee

That’s so great because I think sometimes we’re so focused on Vancouver and everyone’s like, housing crisis here, which there is. But like, because I’ve lived up in places like Fort St. John, this has been a problem for a long time. Like you were saying, there isn’t enough housing up there. And this is not a new, like that was like 15 years ago that I lived up there. So the fact, and I had trouble finding a place. So the fact that there is more choices across BC

0:28:49

because there’s a lot of industry and a lot of job potential too, but you got to be able to accommodate everybody.

0:28:55

Esther

Right. And with more remote work, people are interested in living in small communities, whether they grew up there or that’s where they want to raise their families. Keeping teachers, nurses, all of those sort of community assets also require housing. And I think, you know, what’s What’s also really important is that because BC Housing is provincial, we’re building housing across the entire province.

And we are ourselves having to address the challenges of meeting the needs in the different communities and also dealing with the challenges of getting building supplies and having industry be available in terms of labor and things like that across all of these different places.

So very much learned experience in is informing DASH.

So it’s not just a we work and operate out of Vancouver in the lower mainland and so therefore this is a good solution only for that.

We really have people who represent all different aspects of building across the province on the team.

0:29:56

Jennifer-Lee

Yeah, I love it. You’re tailoring it to each place, because that’s another thing you brought up is labor. Not everywhere, not everywhere across B . C. has enough people to build either. And so it’s like, how do you get the people up there to build?

0:30:09

Mike

We don’t have enough here in Vancouver to build right now.

Chris:

I’d add to this is the manufacturers that I’m fortunate to work with. Yeah. Gather lots of information. They’re not in Vancouver. No, not a single one.

There’s some on the island. There’s one in Prince George. There’s one in Invermere. We’ve got Kamloops, we’ve got, they’re spread out, they’re across the province. And so that’s something we very intentionally understood how they’re currently working and what they’re doing within their communities to find that productivity. This isn’t a Vancouver focused piece.

There is obviously an influence from Metro Vancouver and some of the zoning and a requirement here. One of the things I’d also expand on this regional context, and I kind of touched on it, is Vancouver, Victoria, if you look at the population map, is our densest populations. If you overlay our seismic issues, it’s also the exact same map, which is interesting. And so I think as we progress our buildings, and typically in those areas we’re looking for higher density, The problem you’re solving is often more to do with inches of fitting buildings into very expensive land. When you push into generally less urban areas or more rural areas, the land issue is different and you can be a bit more expansive in those sort of things. So there’s a it’s a different problem.

I still strongly believe the process that’s being developed with early engagement, understanding the zoning, more and more typologies of buildings. So this as much as we’re saying it’s focused right now on six story three to six story buildings, that typologies, it doesn’t take much to add more typologies to this framework and this process and this platform that expands to where it goes always. And if you qualify those with manufacturers, qualify those with code, all these things, they’re ready to go. Um, so I think there’s, as this grows, it has a lot of potential to see, Hey, wait, early engagement.

 

digital resources, those are the twos, are really the benchmark of what DASH is doing. A lot of it’s been that early piece. We’re starting to see more and more in the construction and demonstration projects are now starting to come into place, and that’s gonna give us real -world data. Can we reduce it by 30 %? What can we repeat? What is possible?

And that’s just a progression.

It’s not gonna happen overnight, but there is that ability to do that, and that’s what allows us to change. and be more productive.

0:32:29

Esther

And it’s definitely in the plan, right? So it’s not just like, we’re gonna see how this goes. And then eventually, we’ll figure this out. There is a solid thought process of like, how are we going to continue to build this out?

For the benefit of all of the communities in BC, I think the other real advantage of understanding where the off -site manufacturers are located is that when you’re looking at the overall costs from an environmental perspective and a sustainable perspective, if you already have someone who’s located in Prince George and you decide that that’s where you want to order your product from because your building is also in northern BC, then you’re having a lot less of a trucking you know, implication than if you’re bringing something up from Vancouver or even from the island. So it allows manufacturers to, I think, also engage with building in a very different way because you can be more regional, um, just in understanding what the products are that are needed.

0:33:28

Mike

I think the other thing to point out is this is a very new program. It just launched early 2025. So one, with every new initiative, nail it, then scale it, right?

So everybody’s learning as they go. Even the best plans still have to be flushed out and made to reality. Because the program is so new, have you seen any results as, as through the course of launching this program, like have, has DASH facilitated any projects to this point, or are we still just talking and planning for that?

0:34:04

Esther

Well, we have demonstration projects in the works that are starting to go through this process. And BC Housing is funding a number of projects. So we’re actually going to be the guinea pig here. We’re not saying someone else go out and try and figure this out and tell us how it goes. And so we’re really taking a learning by doing approach. And then Metro Vancouver, as a partner, is also doing two demonstration projects. So really being able to learn with them.

And we have new interests as people are hearing about DASH sort of saying, well, maybe this site could be.

The benefit of DASH 2 is that while I talk about the whole workflow, you don’t have to do the whole thing from start to finish.

You can sort of come in and just use part of it. So if you decide that you want to take your design that you already have that maybe you didn’t do on the DASH platform, you can still translate that into a list of components.

Right, Chris?

Okay, good. This is what I imagined in my head, but I actually don’t know whether it’s technically that feasible, but Chris said yes. So good.

I’m on the right track. The point is you take that plan, talk to your manufacturer in your region.

0:34:56

Chris

Yes, exactly.

0:34:57

Esther

They’ll build it.

It’s already been pre -designed with what they can build. 100%. Build it, they will come.

Yes. And because we’re talking about open source or non -proprietary systems, you also don’t have to worry if down the road you need to do some maintenance because you’re not worried about the bespokeness of a particular wall configuration 10 years down the road when you have to do some renovations or what have you. No, it just reminds me of like the Flintstones, which I think is great. It’s like the live version. And they’re like in the quarry making houses. And like they’re like, oh, this is like the first zero carbon houses, by the way, because there was no offset.

But they had a machine. I don’t know. It was run by dinosaurs and like they made houses. But this is what I’m thinking of like as like a bear about goes by. But I think it’s a great idea. I think the other thing that I’ll add to that open source nature.

0:35:51

Chris

And for me, it’s been actually really freeing, going to manufacturers, understanding their process, what they want to build, and then saying, Hey, guys, if this is proprietary, it’s gonna be very hard for me to get BC Housing and our public funding to spec this. It needs to be built by many. So what can we do within your system that we can still, you still need proprietary, you still need profit, you still need to be a successful organization, but let’s work together to understand what we can specify so that it can go out to multiple people. It can be early engagement, all those pieces, and it can go through the public procurement process. And then it isn’t a one trick pony sort of thing. And so that’s been a really, and even for the manufacturers, it’s been it’s been bringing them all into the room and saying, let’s all work together.

And it’s been a very collaborative process in that regard of, okay, well, let’s, this works really good here. This works here. It’s been, there’s been a lot of work done in that regard. And it’s not finished. There’s no, there’s no silver spoon here. There’s no like, do this and we succeed.

It’s still very much iterative.

It’s still much working together. It’s still figuring out in its infancy.

How do you get this further?

0:37:00

Mike

Chris, while you were talking, it brought up something and permit me, if you will, for a little side quest. Yeah. With the DASH, we can essentially design my next house, right? Most of it with architects and support from designers. How comprehensive is that design? Are we designing my walls and my roof?

Are we doing my mechanical systems, my HVAC systems, my windows?

Like how, how comprehensive is it now? And what’s the end game?

0:37:25

Chris

I’ll set a little context for the DASH today. Your home is on a fairly large lot and you’re planning to build an 80 unit six story building. Okay. Just for context. So we’re going to be clear.

And yes, we can get to your typology and multiplex in time. You’re going to be able to go into a system. You’re going to type in your address. You’re going to draw your lot because you just won the lottery. You’re actually going to buy your neighbor’s lots too. Sure.

And you’re going to draw that lot. That system is then going to generate the zoning massing model. So it’s going to give you five or six different options with different typologies that you’re going to be able to understand. Hey, I want a three bedroom because I got two kids. I’m going to get a two bedroom for mom. You’re going to plan out your 80 units.

If you’re a social housing entity like PC Housing, you’re able to really fit your needs analysis in those pieces. So you’re going to get your typology designed. That is going to be exported to your professional team. The architect is going to take that zoning box, which is like a glass box of of space that we know conforms to the current zoning, which is critical. That glass box then gets an architect’s review. The fit happens.

It gets a structural review, so we make sure the building can stand. What is the system that should be used? CLT, TGIs, panels, all these different systems. Let’s have a human touch in the process. That then gets uploaded to a kit of parts engine, an optimizer, that then runs it based on the systems we’ve developed from the manufacturers, that is going to make it all a bunch of kit of parts. It’s going to panelize everything and it’ll offset already.

That then gives you an output that you can run a pretty detailed performa and know, whoa, I didn’t win enough of a lottery or I got lots of money to spare. And so it gives you a very early, very fast decision matrix to move forward or not. And you’re going to be at a place where you’re very close to building permit ready.

You’re still going to need at that point a detailed architectural review, co -review. These things are complicated, but you’re that much further along. And you’ve realistically done that in like, I’m going to put some architects under the wire right now. Let’s call it like 10 working days. The digital part of it is instant, but there’s collaboration and there’s other pieces in that. So I’m going to give them a, I think they like to say 20.

I’m cutting it at half just because speeds, speeds the winner here. But that’s, that’s that, that’s the core elements.

I’m the process right now in DASH.

Um, that really lets you accelerate these things.

It gives the developer the home builder, and I’m going to give you your analogy back, the ability to make very good, sound decisions, and what it is.

It also allows our publicly funded entity like Beesig Housing to give very good data early on in their projects.

0:40:01

Mike

I like it because most people won’t win the lottery.

Most people won’t have the luxury of doing whatever they want. So most of us are stuck trying to make it work within the context of what we have while trying to get ahead.

0:40:11

Mike

Yep. this I think is going to be crucial to standardizing this methodology and shifting how we collectively think moving forward. So we’re not only bringing homes, we’re building a better BC because we are thinking about this and we’re all on the same page while we’re doing so.

Esther

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why we’re planning on adding the typologies and standardized designs for the more sort of individual home builder, not necessarily the one that’s doing 80 to 100 units.

0:40:35

Jennifer-Lee

I feel like this could be a four hour episode. I just like that this is like a hypothetical situation. I like it. I was like, I’m going to come live in one of your 80 units for free. Let’s go back to the part where Chris said, I won the lottery. That’s my favorite part of the entire conversation.

0:40:52

Mike

You’re able to buy your neighbor’s lot so we can put it in the context of the typology we have today. Well, yeah, I’m just trying to weeds on my way into a house.

0:40:59

Jennifer-Lee

So there we go. Of course, you mentioned a little bit about BC and everything, but DASH is also designed for nonprofits and municipalities. How important is partnerships like this in the work and why should these groups be involved?

0:41:19

Esther

Oh, that’s a really good question.

I mean, I think it’s really accessible to any kind of home builder, whether you’re a nonprofit for profit. Everyone likes to create efficiencies. The push or the pressure on the public side of things for nonprofits is, of course, you only have so much of a funding envelope. But that’s the same if you’re a for profit builder, you have only so much money that you can put towards any one project. And so this really allows you to sort of realize those efficiencies in a much greater way. reduce your carrying costs, because you’re going through so much faster, and being able to do that portfolio approach or those economies of scale.

So you’re not just looking at one project, you’re saying, okay, I’ve got five lots, how am I being able to, you know, design, they may all look different, but because they have underlying similar components, you can, you know, bulk buy basically, for lack of a better term, those components for all five of your sites.

Chris

I would add quickly if that I’ll say if just to hedge my bet when this gets rolling and you get it out. I mean the other. board I sit on is HIEM Housing, so the not -for -profit arm of Squamish Nation. And I can confidently tell you in that there is a portfolio approach of buildings that are getting rolled out.

You start to put the power of a DASH program within the First Nations and those housing sectors. I also work for a different First Nation entity that is looking at development. You start to apply standardization, repetition, and you just play on the coattails of this.

So you know that this is happening through our largest developer in the province, BC Housing, and you start to just roll that same momentum.

There’s a huge opportunity for those price incentives and those sort of pieces.

That’s a little bit down the road. Let’s get these built. Let’s get these repeated. Let’s get these elements happening. But as that industrialized process happens, there’s a ton of wake. There’s a ton of backlog that will happen that releases this piece.

And it’s just the nature of a market. It’s that market transformation push. I feel like it’s happening right now.

0:43:21

Mike

Can you guys talk about the Vienna House?

Because a lot of what’s happening was based on the learning from that project. So let’s chat about that project.

0:43:26

Esther

Sure. Actually, that’s a that’s a great segue to a point I wanted to bring up around BIM.

So having that 3D, you know, digital twin, every piece of information.

So you also have that collaboration really early on because all of your trades are putting information into BIM.

From my perspective as someone who has worked in the housing sector for a really long time and have seen the conversations that happen between the development side of the provider, and then also going to operations where they say, hey, you put in all these fancy new systems that we have no idea how to manage these and get like 12 binders in order to do this. BIM gives you that sort of digital library of those binders in a really accessible way. So it’s not just for the design and development and build stage that I’m excited to see. I’m also really excited about what happens as you, as the provider, operator of a building. Hopefully Chris isn’t going to fall off the couch with your coffee.

0:44:27

(Speaker 3)

that allows you to still have all of that information from a security and emergency standards perspective that also helps because you have all of that information at your fingertips. Sorry, can you I was totally going off on my other train of thought.

Mike

So no, but both of those trains will converge at the station, which is stationed at Vienna House.

0:44:50

Esther

So. Oh, yeah. Sorry.

Yes. So thank you. That was the tie in. So we’ve learned a lot about BIM through Vienna House. And one of the big learnings was actually a huge reduction in change orders compared to a natural build. So Vienna House is an innovation project in partnership with the city of Vancouver and a number of other partners, also with the city of Vienna in Austria.

And if you You saw some of the videos that we’ve been posting on the Vienna House website. You’ve seen how incredibly fast it has gone up, and it has used a number of, not the entire thing, but prefabricated pieces. So the balconies are a really good example. They literally came up on a truck and got attached to the building outside. They look really cool. being able to really learn from the trades, giving feedback from our construction manager, those kinds of things on what works, what doesn’t, but also having the experience of suddenly realizing that you did all this great design and then there’s a tree in the way and that holds up your project by two months while you try and deal with the approvals around a tree.

So one of the things that we have tried to address in DASH is being able to get that real -time feedback the design stage so that you don’t have crews waiting on you to figure it out and money is sort of being burnt, basically, with no work happening while you’re trying to figure it out in real -time.

Chris

46:30

I’d add the idea of BIM, which is a fancy word for a bunch of computer modeling, puts a whole bunch of data front end. I think it’s really critical the perspective. So it’s something that builds offsite. We’re like, our BIM models go really, really detailed.

I want to know where every screw is, every cut, every piece. An architect doesn’t need to go there. So there, what VNL did a really good job of is building out that model. of what perspective needs to be where and what is the level at which they’re going through. And it’s transpired, a lot of that thinking has transpired into the DASH program of these BIM models. To say an architect should take it to a screw level is a silly piece.

The structural engineer needs a certain level of BIM, an architect needs a BIM, a manufacturer of off -site. The nature of manufacturing something off -site, you don’t have a chance for a do -over. One of the beauties of stick frame is the sledgehammer. It’s pretty easy to fix things. They’re change orders and they’re expensive. but it is relatively easy to fix.

If we’re going to advance offsite construction, industrialized construction, you don’t have that do over. So you need to be accurate. That accuracy comes from a digital model, a BIM model that’s being created. That creates this huge resource that can be used for the entire life of that building. And it’s hugely valuable. And I think that’s a really cornerstone that marries mass timber, offsite construction, early design is this digital this digital representation of the building.

And that’s what you can build on. And I think the other thing that I think I’d applaud Vienna House and there’s if we dig into it, there’s pros and cons and maybe I should gloss over it quickly, but there’s a lot of lessons learned.

0:47:54

And so this is where we take those perspectives and you start to put this into a platform with digital media and you can actually start to derive the data. You can start to repeat it so that when that team goes to build the Vanna House the second time, they’re probably going to not make those. And I’m not going to say mistakes, just whatever occurred. There’s lots of different examples. I’m not doing specifics, but that’s how you’re going to improve.

And that’s how we have to get better at the construction industry.

We just don’t do lesson learned very well.

0:48:20

I’ll point to my own projects. I have lots of failures in offsite construction. I have houses that we assembled in four days and took 12 months to build. That’s a failure because somebody didn’t order a bathtub in time. There’s lots of my own lessons that I can point to in that regard, and that’s how you can progress. And it’s important to not ignore them, is my point.

0:48:39

Esther

And so that’s why we’re really, you know, using that sort of learning by doing motto is, is because it’s not necessarily a failure. It’s just if we cannot replicate that same sort of confluence of events, then we’re creating that effectiveness and that efficiency by not having to repeat the same challenges over and over again. Because we can learn by that one. And then sort of, I mean, we might create other challenges by trying to circumvent it, but then you don’t do that the next time either. And so you continue to iterate and everything that you do with a building and every experience that someone has with DASH ends up being data that we can use to make the platform better, to engage with our partners in a different way, to get feedback. So it’s all helpful, whether it’s, you know, everyone says this is complete success or here’s what I didn’t like about the process, you know, then that gives us feedback to say, okay, well, how can we make this better or more constructive for the person who’s trying to access whatever part of the workflow or aspect of the program.

0:49:45

Jennifer-Lee

You’re always improving.

Esther

Always improving.

Mike

I love the word that you use because I was going to ask a question next. You said the word efficiency, whatever it is. we take learnings from what we’ve done and the next time we do it, we do it that much better. So that’s generation one.

There’ll be generation two, generation three. So by the time my kids are ready to start building houses or being in this industry, it’s going to be way more efficient, way better, and it’s going to be way easier for all of us to achieve our goals. We’re fortunate to live in a world in what I consider the best province in Canada.

I’ve lived in five of them.

I have a basis of comparison. We could always do better. And how we could do better is make this a place where everyone can afford to have a home, have a family if they choose, and create a life for themselves. And that’s why BC Housing is doing such a great job with this initiative, with everything across the board. But you’re leveling the playing field, and that speaks to our heart, and it speaks to who we are as a province. And if we can’t take care of everyone, what does it say about us?

So good on you for that. In this conversation, we’ve talked a lot about where we are right now. We’re in year one, okay?

October 20th, a bunch of stuff happened.

November 5th and 14th, a bunch more stuff happened, new blueprints. So now that we know where we’re going, what’s next for DASH? What does the next couple of years look like? What’s our runway look like?

0:51:20

Esther

Well, continuing to build different housing typologies. So looking at what other standardized designs already exist out there. So in conversations with our partners at the Ministry of Housing and Municipal Affairs, they designed a number of them looking at the standardized design catalog that CMHC issued, and also adding our own that is, you know, unique to BC in terms of the leadership that we’ve shown in this area.

So single egress stairs, and designs that look to that continued work on the code. And also, continuing to refine it, looking at how we can maybe move this past just residential housing.

So some people have asked us, well, will DASH work if we do a multi -use building where there’s, you know, commercial on the bottom and housing on top or some other kind of type of building like schools or something like a wall is a wall is a wall.

Not that easy. appreciate. Helen and Chris are gonna be like, no, don’t say that ever again. But you know, like, so so really, the runway in the next five years, we’re building that now is to really get people to use DASH to really use this as a tool to leverage how we are doing construction in this province and across Canada.

0:52:31

We know that at a federal government level they’re really looking at modern methods of construction in a conversation with our partners across all of the provinces and territories. They’re equally looking at this. This isn’t something that we have to hold on to as BC and say like it’s ours and so we’re only going to use it. It is something that can be you know, use Canada wide. It’s just that BC is showing the leadership and also doing the learning by doing in its demonstration projects first and foremost. And so we’ll be able to, to create those effectiveness and those efficiencies before maybe some of the others have a chance to try it.

0:53:09

Chris

A couple thoughts that I appreciate that there has been a really interesting volume of inquiry across Canada from other provinces. I got one from New Zealand recently. Helen got one from France, apparently. Helen talked to somebody in France. So it’s fun to be a part of. The other thought that I had is in this idea of typologies.

And there’s been really good conversations with infrastructure, BC and the Ministry of Infrastructure, which are two different things. Schools, long -term care homes, all these things.

A wall is a wall, yes. But the reality of the major constraint on modern methods of construction, or at least building something in an in a factory is what you drive down the road. So the size of what I can drive down the road is my major constraint. If I’m going to build a school that way a long term care home, a residential building that it doesn’t change that much. The constraints are still the same thing. So we can apply that methodology and that thinking, and it’s starting to happen.

There’s really exciting meetings connecting different pieces of this in that level of thinking. There’s something like 10 ,000 long -term care beds needed in BC. I mean, what a great chance to have a fairly repetitive building typology that we just execute. Schools, we need a lot more schools. This is something that can be repeated in that typology. And just using that process and figuring out productivity, efficiency, lessons learned, all these pieces is what that’s about.

And I think there’s also been some really interesting learnings from infrastructure and major projects, because they do a lot of IDP. They have a lot of built -in process already that’s actually important to go backwards. So I think there’s a huge opportunity for learning in both directions on that.

0:54:50

Jennifer-Lee

Well, we appreciate you guys being here so much. And just before we go, if people are interested, which I know they will be after listening to this, how can they learn more about DASH

0:55:10

Esther

? Sure. So DASH, you can go to www.acceleratedhousing.ca  . That is the DASH website. You can also email us at DASH at BC Housing . org and or just go to the BC Housing website and send us an email. We also have a research email so people can reach us that way as well. We’re also going to be taking some of our lessons learned and translating that into educational opportunities and on our Learning on Demand site.

for the residential builders industry. So stay tuned for some. new offerings on that front. I feel like your URL should have a DASH in it.

0:55:47

Mike

Speaking of educational opportunities, this in itself has been an amazing educational opportunity, not only for our audience to learn about how BC Housing is shaping the future of our conversation around housing, but For us, we’ve learned a lot too.

This is a really exciting subject.

And the hardest part has been limiting the number of questions we ask.

And I said, we could go for four hours.

You guys have to come back for sure, for sure.

But right now I have to thank you because you guys have given us some amazing insight.

You’ve shared your passion for helping fix some of the challenges that we have in our industry. And we’re incredibly grateful, Esther, Chris, thank you for coming. Because innovation collaboration shapes or reshape how we approach the housing industry in BC. We learned a lot. I mean, DASH, what a cool program.

We learned how it worked. We learned how it can help us figure out where we can build and what we can build on each piece of property.

It even helps us make sure that every municipality is on the same page.

And based learning off of things like the amazing Vienna House project, I think we’ve created a very solid future. Let me rephrase that.

You’ve created a very solid future that the rest of us can benefit from.

0:56:52

Let’s call it for what it is. We’ll all be creating it together. Absolutely. You’re taking credit. I’m not taking any credit. I just asked the question.

0:56:58

Esther

But we can’t do this without the industry being full participant and active participants in this. And so a big shout out to the partners who have been with us since the beginning on this, giving us the feedback, but also through a sort of call to action for the rest of the industry to come try out DASH and give us feedback, but also start using it to design and build. That’s the only way that we’re going to be able to really continue this collaboration and shared future together. What I would say for the last words, if I can, is we are happy to come back and provide an update on where DASH is in another couple of months.

0:57:37

Mike

Perfect.

0:57:37

Mike

Last words we all enjoy.

0:57:40

Chris

I’ll add a quick kind of last word. Absolutely. Which is simply, we just need to do, we just need to execute. What the next phase is, is just doing it and executing and getting it done.

0:57:45

Mike

Perfect. Well, let’s get to it. Speaking of getting it done, Want to thank you for being here, but I also want to thank everyone who tuned in for this episode as well. We wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for our amazing sponsors and our amazing viewers and listeners as well. We would like to give one of our viewers a beautiful Napoleon Prestige P500 stainless steel natural gas barbecue valued at $1 ,600 from our friends at FortisBC. And it’s real, real easy. You guys can play along too. Tell your family, tell your friends, share, like, do all of that good stuff. And then go to www.havan.ca/measuretwicecutonce .

0:58:20

Jennifer-Lee

Follow the instructions and you could be grilling up something really good very soon. And remember, hit, follow, stay connected and never miss an episode. Thank you so much to our partners, Trail Appliances, FortisBC, BC Housing, Rami Films, J -Pod Creations and AI Technology & Design.

Mike

And as well, HAVAN, the Home Builders Association of Vancouver, which we’re all proud members of. HAVAN is part of CHBA BC, which is the provincial version and CHBA National. What’s great is now we have people at the municipal level the provincial level and the federal level collaborating and sharing knowledge like you gave us today and getting it out there where it needs to be.

0:58:59

Jennifer-Lee

Thank you so much for listening. See you next time on Measure Twice, Cut Once.

 

 

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