Episode 90: Phoenix House Completed! Canada’s First Zero Carbon Home

Episode 90 celebrates the completion of the Phoenix House, Canada’s first zero carbon home.

What began as a devastating house fire became a groundbreaking residential construction project. Hosts Mike and Jennifer welcome back Todd Best of Best Builders and Energy Advisor Elisabeth Baudinaud of Carbon Wise to discuss the journey, lessons learned, and the impact the project is already having across the industry. The conversation explores embodied carbon reduction, low-carbon materials, and healthy home design.

Listen to “Ep 90: Phoenix House Completed” on Spreaker.

You will also find “Measure Twice, Cut Once” on iTunes, Spotify, Spreaker, and on HAVAN’s YouTube channel.

TODD BEST, PRESIDENT / OWNER, BEST BUILDERS LTD.

As a young man, Todd spent each summer working for his father, restoring heritage-class government buildings. The work ignited a passion in him for thoughtful re-design and high-quality craftsmanship that continues to this day. By the age of 24, Todd had started his own homebuilding company, and in 1994 he acquired his Red Seal certification in carpentry, followed by a certificate in Construction Engineering Technologies.

Even before he finished his Red Seal, Todd was taking on challenges, finishing two large renovations and a brand new home for clients whose builder had left them mid-project. His reputation for being a good carpenter with a knack for seeing a project’s creative possibilities began to grow with his business.

Todd’s first major custom home project was a modern, steel and glass, roughly 8,000 sq. ft. home in West Vancouver. He had framed many traditional Vancouver homes, but this project, with all of its technical challenges, took him to the next level. “The client said, ‘I trust you’,” he recalls, “and that was all I needed. That project gave me the confidence that I could be that builder who could see a way through almost any problem, and who could build homes that were out-of-the-ordinary.”

Listen and like for your chance to win a gas BBQ compliments of our Podcast Partner FortisBC.

Ep 90: Phoenix House Completed

Audio transcribed using Ai technology. Spelling and grammatical errors can occur. We do our best to review and ensure proper nouns are correct, add hyperlinks, and continue to work with the programs to advance the results.

Phoenix House

 

0:00:03

(Speaker 2)

Hey, everybody, welcome back to Measure Twice, Cut Once. I’m Mike, one of the co -hosts, and today we’re checking on one of our most inspiring and exciting projects yet.

 

0:00:10

(Speaker 4)

I’m really excited. And I’m Jennifer Lee. If you haven’t already tapped and followed the podcast, so you don’t miss future episodes like this, because today we’re talking about the Phoenix House, Canada’s first zero carbon home built by Best Builders and Carbon Wise, who we have here on the couches today.

 

0:00:27

(Speaker 1)

Thank you very much.

 

0:00:28

(Speaker 2)

Absolutely important that you do follow along. There’s so many cool episodes and so much good information, especially this season. You’re not going to want to miss any of this. If you’re thinking about a project anytime ever, you’re going to want to follow this show. Today, it is a distinct pleasure to welcome not one, but two good friends into the studio. Of course, Todd Best, our frequent guest.

 

0:00:44

(Speaker 2)

I mean, he’s on here so much, we might as well change the name of the show to Measure Twice, Todd Once. And of course, Elisabeth, who’s brand new to the Measure Twice, Cut Once family. But we’re going to have an amazing conversation. Here’s what’s really cool. What you were able to do was turn an idea, maybe just the thought of an idea, and some ambition into a really powerful reality. And the idea is very simple.

 

0:01:07

(Speaker 2)

Not only are we rebuilding this home, but we’re changing the way our industry works. And that’s really exciting. So this is going to be probably one of the most enjoyable conversations we’ve had in some time.

 

0:01:19

(Speaker 4)

And Todd, nice to have you back in the studio. Like Mike said, I feel like you’re like an extra co -host. You’re like your little villain co -host.

 

0:01:26

(Speaker 1)

Oh, thank you so much.

 

0:01:26

(Speaker 4)

So if Mike goes on vacation, it’ll be like Jennifer Lee and Todd.

 

0:01:30

(Speaker 2)

We should just get a cardboard cut of Todd. So for the three episodes a season, he’s not here. We just stick him in the background.

 

0:01:34

(Speaker 1)

Stick him in a corner.

 

0:01:35

(Speaker 4)

Yeah. Well, we really appreciated when you came in, it feels like a long time ago, with JP, the homeowner, and we talked about this project.

 

0:01:46

(Speaker 1)

Can you give us like a quick little, like pretend we were on a TV show and you’re giving us like a little recap? Sure.

 

0:01:54

(Speaker 24)

I’ll do a short recap.

 

0:01:56

(Speaker 4)

I’m hoping.

 

0:01:56

(Speaker 1)

Short recap, just to bring the listeners in. So I met JP and Ritz’s basically the homeowner. a tragic fire in which they lost their home. We were going to look at building a new home. And what we ended up doing was branching out and saying, what can we do that’s different? He really, he is in the educational field.

 

0:02:13

(Speaker 1)

So we were thinking about that. So as we hired our team, we started prompting ideas. And one of our team members was Elisabeth, who we have here today. And her idea was to do the zero carbon, the net carbon, and she had the idea. So she really spearheaded that part of it. The net zero was a program we were already involved with, but it really evolved from JP letting our team have the ability to think outside the box.

 

0:02:42

(Speaker 1)

And so this all really comes back to J . P. and saying, hey, we trust you guys.

 

0:02:45

(Speaker 4)

What do you think?

 

0:02:46

(Speaker 2)

And we were able to to run with this cool idea and create this one of a kind home. And I love the name you’re calling it, the Phoenix House, because rising from the ashes. Yeah. So, Elisabeth, when you got involved in this home, it wasn’t going to be this methodology.

 

0:03:02

(Speaker 3)

What were the factors that you looked at that made it? makes sense to do this, and I guess we should talk about what are some of the elements of this house that are particularly unique and special, because if we’re watching at home or listening at home, because we followed along per the instructions at the opening, there’s a lot of conversation. So if you want to reference this house, episode 58, but let’s talk about the house and dig into it a little bit, because there’s some inspiring information for anyone who’s building any type of home. Yeah, and it all started with that very first meeting we had with Todd and the homeowners and the architect, Nick, and even Sidesweeper, which, you know, like, I never get to meet the Sidesweeper until, like, we see them at mid -construction, right? And so we discussed, like, what is your vision? And I think it all started from this.

 

0:03:47

(Speaker 3)

And when I started bringing up, you know, energy efficiency and zero carbon, they were, they’re just very enthusiastic. They just were very excited. And so then we went down the list of like what, you know, in our experience makes a good energy efficient, low carbon home. And they were, they were like, just yes, yes, yes, let’s do all of this. And so really inspired us to give our best and look at what is then, you know, if we are going to do all of those things, like what are the best, the best recognition and awards and certifications we could apply for.

 

0:04:18

(Speaker 1)

And then that’s how it happened.

 

0:04:19

(Speaker 2)

all started. We started looking at what is the best we could do, and we did it. Yeah, lofty goals.

 

0:04:27

(Speaker 3)

So high level, what makes this house special, right? better insulation, better doors, better windows, like let’s go through some of the high level points to really help understand because until you’ve seen this project it’s really hard to quantify how unique and special it is. So let’s get some details and figure this out. So at the beginning of course the energy efficiency so it is extremely energy efficient which means highly insulated walls, airtight, and then highly efficient mechanical systems. And then we did all electric for the mechanical systems there. So they are all very efficient heat pumps, heat recovery ventilator.

 

0:05:04

(Speaker 3)

And then we looked at what is often overlooked is the impact of materials. And so we did a life cycle assessment and looked at what type of materials we’re going to put into this home. Are they low carbon? Are they high carbon? How do they interact with each other? How do we achieve our energy efficiency goals?

 

0:05:21

(Speaker 3)

But with better materials. And so we looked at hemp baths inside.

 

0:05:27

(Speaker 4)

We looked at cellulose. We had EnviroShake roof materials that is 95 % recycled with a warranty over 30 years.

 

0:05:33

(Speaker 1)

So we looked for durable, low carbon, healthy materials to put in.

 

0:05:40

(Speaker 23)

And this project, of course, has been studied by several groups.

 

0:05:42

(Speaker 4)

Can you please remind us who is behind the project and the educational opportunities being offered?

 

0:05:48

(Speaker 2)

Do you have an hour?

 

0:05:49

(Speaker 3)

So many. Quick again, short.

 

0:05:52

(Speaker 1)

High level folks, high level.

 

0:05:54

(Speaker 3)

For the CHB and F0 was part of the certifications that we are pursuing as well as UBC. We had BCIT as well.

 

0:06:05

(Speaker 4)

Retrofit Canada.

 

0:06:06

(Speaker 3)

Retrofit Canada. It is going to be certified with the Living Building Institute in the U . S. That’s a U .

 

0:06:14

(Speaker 1)

1. -based certification. And then we had site tours with Haven. We had a lot of people, students coming over from UBC. UBC engineers have come through. We’ve had the City of Aperture come through with their inspectors because they are not quite at step code five yet.

 

0:06:32

(Speaker 1)

So some of the challenges we had were explain to them the systems that we were using, because they were actually several years ahead of what a lot of inspectors have been educated on.

 

0:06:42

(Speaker 4)

So we used this opportunity to help educate the city inspectors and, you know, they were very open, but a lot of stuff was, you know, things they’d just seen for the first time. So it added some challenges.

 

0:06:54

(Speaker 1)

That’s one of the problems with building the first of anything, I suppose, is you have to be able to understand the reasoning, almost the philosophy of how you’re going to build the home. And then being able to explain that to someone in such a manner where they can say, ah, I get what you’re doing. So and what were some of the challenges? Because that’s a juicy part for both of you, because I know that like what you do is so amazing, but it can’t always be that easy. Oh, and it wasn’t. I mean, thinking, you know, thinking back and even to the point where how did we pull the house down?

 

0:07:27

(Speaker 1)

Because we didn’t want to just put a machine in and mash it up, which is the normal. So we literally took the house apart by hand to keep the carbon score down, recycled a lot of the material that we could reuse, and we used that back into our formwork. Everything we did, we basically made a process. we contacted Elisabeth and her team and said, this is what we’re doing. How does this affect my carbon score? Even the tools we used on there, we were sponsored by Milwaukee tools.

 

0:07:55

(Speaker 1)

So even all the tools we used were all electric tools, all rechargeable. So it was kind of a, uh, changing your mindset. if you will, and then being able to rely on the team that we had put together. Nick Bray was fantastic.

 

0:08:10

(Speaker 4)

So we’d go to him.

 

0:08:11

(Speaker 3)

And of course, you know, Nick wants the biggest, fanciest, best looking place. And then it would challenge me to find things that I could fit within the budget and then bounce those ideas off Elisabeth for approval. So I think once we had that process understood, it definitely allowed us to speed up a little bit. What were your challenges, Elisabeth? So at the very beginning, keeping the foundation was one of the things that I wanted for carbon footprint, of course, not pouring a new high carbon foundation was one of the goals. But keeping the existing foundation at the beginning, I was a little worried we wouldn’t be able to do it.

 

0:08:46

(Speaker 3)

But we had the geotech and structural engineers, Alastair Engineering approve it, which was such a relief.

 

0:08:52

(Speaker 4)

And then but also a challenge for Nick as well to work out the design based on what we currently had, like the layout we currently had of the foundation and then added low carbon concrete for the rest and the little portion that we needed at the end.

 

0:09:06

(Speaker 3)

That was one of the challenges as well as we wanted to look at hemp baths and I remember we spent quite a lot of time trying to find the right supplier for the hemp baths. That’s not something that you just go to Home Depot and find, right? Like that’s something like you need a specific supplier. That’s insulation, right?

 

0:09:22

(Speaker 2)

Yeah. Hemp bath insulation for interior partitions that was, um, they are out in the East Coast. So it was important for us to find the right partners throughout so that there are either local here in BC or, you know, like a bit further out, but not coming from, um, Europe, for example. So, um, local suppliers, local materials that are low carbon and finding the right partners that really truly believed in the process and in the vision for this house, that was one of the important things for us. On that subject of sourcing locally, and I’m not meeting this in a joking way, we talk about eating with a 100 mile diet, right?

 

0:09:57

(Speaker 2)

Is it conceivable through some of the learning of this project We’d have the 220 kilometer version of that as metric.

 

0:10:04

(Speaker 22)

But could we conceivably get to a fully formed future where everything we need to build a home like this is within, say, a four to six hour drive?

 

0:10:13

(Speaker 3)

So we’re not taking container ships, we’re reducing our footprint. But more importantly, and I’m thinking higher level, Haven is not just a bunch of builders, it’s a bunch of suppliers, there’s a bunch of professionals. Can we support ourselves by supporting ourselves? Is that conceivable through some of the learning that we’ve taken from this home? It is. But we have to say that a lot of some suppliers were coming from the east coast as well.

 

0:10:36

(Speaker 3)

Some of the stuff we don’t have here in B . C. For example, I wanted to look at wood fiber insulation and currently wood fiber insulation either comes from Europe or from Maine in the U . S. and they don’t really deliver here. So that was one of the things that we couldn’t get it here, even though it would make sense to make wood fiber insulation in B .

 

0:10:55

(Speaker 3)

1. right with this forestry sector.

 

0:10:57

(Speaker 4)

So that’s one of those things. But I’m hopeful that because There is new codes coming around carbon.

 

0:11:04

(Speaker 1)

Now there is a big push for by Canadian. We can manufacture those low carbon materials in Canada. So we have some of the cleanest steel in Canada, for example. So for even bigger projects, we can and we should be able to source more locally. It’s not all of it is here yet, but I’m hopeful that in the coming years it will. Well, it just comes down to and we’ve talked about before, too, is being patient and taking the time to do it.

 

0:11:30

(Speaker 1)

and not being lazy and also comes down to cost sometimes as well.

 

0:11:36

(Speaker 4)

Well, sometimes, you know, I think in this market, I mean, being in this market as long as I have, a lot of builders still have almost like a drive -through mentality where, you know, they’re really busy.

 

0:11:46

(Speaker 1)

They go, okay, we need siding. Where is it? It’s at Home Depot, I’ll buy it tomorrow. Where what we’re trying really to educate people here on is if you do all the homework up front. So you’ve picked all your materials, you can schedule deliveries, you can then take the time to really get involved with what you’re using for your home, and it makes your job easier if you follow the same system. So having your team up front, like being able to have Mike here, even we had planned all the low voltage before I started.

 

0:12:15

(Speaker 1)

Mike’s on the team too. Mike’s on our team too. So even before we planned Like the framing, we had all the low voltage figured out where the rooms are going to go, how we were going to cool them, heat them. We were able to reach out and generate excitement, which is one of the biggest things. A lot of our partners actually came to us and came to us through our association.

 

0:12:35

(Speaker 2)

I mean, I think every one of our main partners is all a Haven member. So we were able to use our association by simply asking the question, Hey, if you had the opportunity to work on a home like this, what would you do? What can your company provide? And that’s when all of these, hey, we can get the hemp here, the siding that we use, which was recycled wood from the local forest fire. All of these people came to us and said, I’d like an opportunity to showcase my product. And I think that’s one of the biggest things this home did was allowed a platform for a lot of these products to say, hey, I’ve got a project that fits this scenario.

 

0:13:14

(Speaker 2)

And hopefully you can use this as an outreach to showcase what we can do. There’s another piece of insight from all of that, too. Whether you’re building a house, designing a house, it’s your house. By bringing a lot of people, not just low voltage, everyone early and heavy duty, all around the table at the same time, I’m fairly confident that most of us were able to come in significantly less expensive than if we brought in later in the project. So timing is everything.

 

0:13:41

(Speaker 2)

And I hope that more people understand that the integrated design process we work with and we used not only created a better end product, it saved the client’s time. money and we know let’s just call it out this is not an inexpensive place to build so anytime we can alter what we do to increase efficiency without detracting from the finished product that’s a win and so that is another huge win from this project but I noticed beside you our third guest is a couple pieces of wood there are some other wins from this project just finished and we already got a bunch of awards on the table And then how is it that finished it?

 

0:14:19

(Speaker 3)

It’s just well, by the time everyone watches this, everyone will be moved in. Yeah. So house is just finished. We got some awards. Tell us about these awards, because this is I tell us nobody’s doing this for awards. We’re doing it because we love doing it.

 

0:14:33

(Speaker 20)

But awards are kind of nice and nice.

 

0:14:35

(Speaker 3)

Talk to us about these, Elisabeth, because these are really cool.

 

0:14:38

(Speaker 4)

Yeah. So we started by winning the BC Embodied Carbon Award in twenty four.

 

0:14:43

(Speaker 3)

That was even during the pandemic. design and construction of the house because of the embodied carbon without getting too technical is the impact of materials so because we have reduced the impact of in the carbon footprint of all of the materials going into the house we were actually coming in way below the benchmarks for BC but also for Canada like we are part of this home i haven’t seen a home that is as low carbon for embodied carbon um in Canada yet like this is truly like one of a kind so um that was recognized back in 2024 and then recently as of last week won the clean 50 award as well top project and that’s again recognizing so that’s a national award for sustainability they are the longest standing sustainability award in Canada and recognizing that this project is indeed very special and in BC we have the energy code we have some progressive municipalities in terms of carbon and energy but The rest of Canada is a bit behind, actually. And so being recognized on the national scale is really, really rewarding because we are showing them like this is possible. This is all the process was the whole idea of it is like we can do it today. We are doing it.

 

0:15:56

(Speaker 3)

You can do it, too. Well, and congratulations. And I’m just curious, do you have other projects that are coming up that you’re going to follow this model or do you hear through other people that have already started similar projects that you guys have started paving the way for? Yes, we do. I know you have a couple on the go as well, but we have some people coming to us.

 

0:16:17

(Speaker 4)

for embodied carbon, for low carbon, because they know that’s what we do and we specialize in.

 

0:16:22

(Speaker 3)

So as energy, we used to be called just energy advisors. Now I call ourselves energy and carbon advisors, because there’s just a lot more to it. And that’s one of the things people are coming with. Even just a homeowner came to me and called me and said, well, I want to build with low carbon materials. I’m like, well, you come to the right place. Let’s talk about it.

 

0:16:40

(Speaker 3)

Right.

 

0:16:40

(Speaker 20)

They don’t necessarily understand everything that comes with it and what it actually means and obviously the technicality of our work.

 

0:16:46

(Speaker 3)

But They want to do low carbon and whatever that means for them is what we’re going to achieve, right? Does low carbon mean like locally sourced and it not coming like from far away? As well as yes, it means that and it means also Manufacturing processes that are not high energy high carbon processes that are products that are made from natural resources.

 

0:17:10

(Speaker 4)

So bio -based hemp, for example, is a material that grows, right?

 

0:17:15

(Speaker 21)

And then you make it into an insulation material.

 

0:17:18

(Speaker 1)

Wood fiber is the same.

 

0:17:19

(Speaker 20)

We are going to see a lot

 

0:17:20

(Speaker 2)

more of those materials coming in the market because code is coming this way as well, but also those are just much better materials. When we entered the home at mid -construction, the hemp bath smelled so good. Everybody noticed it.

 

0:17:35

(Speaker 4)

It was just so nice, right? It feels good. And that’s what people are looking for. I wouldn’t really associate a good smell of hemp bat, but it smells natural. Oh, OK.

 

0:17:44

(Speaker 19)

It smells very clean.

 

0:17:46

(Speaker 4)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it smells like we need to take a commercial break and thank our sponsors, because we have so much to talk about and we don’t want to we don’t want to be remiss in thanking the amazing people who helped bring this podcast to life. So we’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, we’re going to talk a bit about the house and some of the lessons learned so people can start to think about this methodology on their next project as well.

 

0:18:16

(Speaker 4)

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0:19:49

(Speaker 1)

Welcome back. We talked a little about the why in the first part of this conversation. Now we’ve got to drill into some of the learning.

 

Drill. Let’s measure twice, not once. You said drill. I was accidentally funny. I apologize. I love it.

 

0:19:57

(Speaker 1)

We got to figure out how this all came together. And where we should start is at the highest level. And I’ve seen this happen on countless projects, especially when we’re involved in the design process continuously. At the beginning, a homeowner says, I want all of these things. And we go, sure. And then we get down to it and we have to scale based on a number of things.

 

0:20:18

(Speaker 1)

As an example, what we can and can’t be done on that piece of property, where things can go, how we build it. So when we started to where we’re at right now, what had to pivot in order for this project to get across the finish line? In alphabetical order, please.

 

0:20:38

(Speaker 2)

Unfortunately, not a lot of pivoting.

 

0:20:41

(Speaker 1)

I think once we started the project, you know, we created this lofty goal, of course, that no one had ever seen before. And we all were kind of new going in. I guess, you know, you’re full of excitement, sort of like having a brand new toy without putting it all together yet. And we had all these wonderful sponsors that, you know, came on board and offered to help. But I guess the  only downside of this home is that it was a really lofty goal and had never been built. There’s no model to follow.

 

0:21:10

(Speaker 1)

We had obligations from suppliers, donations, associations that were helping us out by providing footage, educational opportunities. So there wasn’t really an opportunity to pivot very much, as you might say. I couldn’t just say, oh, I’m going to change the outside cladding, because then how does that affect my carbon score? So once we’d created a plan, I really just kind of had to charge through it and try to do it as efficiently as I could. We hit some snags. We had a radon issue with the home, which we found was rather interesting and was not easy to get through because…

 

0:21:53

(Speaker 1)

Do we have radon in BC? Is that an issue for us in Lower Mainland? There are areas where there is radon and they’ve kind of mapped it out. The only problem is they have no accurate way of measuring it. So the way you measure radon now, as the city let us know, is when the home is finished, you can actually go down to Canadian Tire and buy a $60 unit that you plug into your wall and it’ll tell you if there’s radon. But there’s no way of actually measuring the ground.

 

0:22:20

(Speaker 1)

So when you clear a lot, they could say there’s radon. Do you know there’s radon? No, there just might be. So we had to treat it like there was radon, even if it was not present. Which means the other downside of that was there is no one that can design a radon system. So we were actually lucky enough to go through the federal government, find someone that designed radon systems for government buildings.

 

0:22:45

(Speaker 1)

They offered to do the design for us for nothing. And then Nick implemented it into his plans. But that was a big you know what the heck moment because all of a sudden i had all these pipes and sub floors and extra insulation i had to think about so normally where you have a contingency that you’d be able to use on a new home our whole entire contingency went to the radon. So that after that, it was anything that came up was basically gonna be out of our budget or additional to our budget, which we’ve had a few of those. creating mechanical chases that we didn’t expect.

 

0:23:21

(Speaker 1)

And again, I got to be careful with mechanical chases because those pierce the interior envelope. So I’ve got to worry about what happens with my energy. And so it definitely, this isn’t a home that you would build and then say, hit cruise control and have a nap. Like you need to be wide awake all the time.

 

0:23:38

(Speaker 2)

all the time, there are constant changes.

 

0:23:42

(Speaker 13)

And, uh, you know, the fellow I had running that job was a fellow named Roger, who’s been with me for about 18 years.

 

0:23:47

(Speaker 2)

He was amazing, amazing carpenter. Roger’s great. Yeah.

 

0:23:50

(Speaker 4)

Our, our young apprentices really, you know, stepped up because I wanted to use it as a training ground for our apprentices as well. And, uh, the patience of the owners.

 

0:23:59

(Speaker 2)

I mean, you said, I don’t know, I mean, Mike, Elisabeth, uh, of course knows this, but you know, when I got stuck, you, my team is who I called on. And said, Hey, Oh, I’m in trouble.

 

0:24:11

(Speaker 4)

Like this is a lot of, this is a lot of work that goes into this.

 

0:24:14

(Speaker 18)

And a lot of it, we maybe didn’t expect or foresee.

 

0:24:17

(Speaker 2)

So how do we make those, how do we make that quick adjustment? Try to save some money.

 

0:24:22

(Speaker 4)

And the, you know, the interior designers were a big part of that while also still trying to achieve the home that we promised everybody, the educational part, all of our sponsors. So yeah, it was, I don’t want to build one again soon, let’s say that. But it was a beautiful experience for all of us, because I felt that I could call anyone on this team anytime, and they’d be enthusiastically, yes, let’s collaborate to the benefit of this project. Yes.

 

0:24:49

(Speaker 3)

And that’s something that we could all learn from, that it’s not about us or any of our egos, it is about the end result and these clients, and we will all do better work when we work together. So we talk about

 

0:25:00

(Speaker 1)

learning in terms of methodology and carbon and materials but there’s more to it than that and this wouldn’t have gone together as well as it had, had we not had that alignment and that heavy investment in planning up front. Man, I’m having FOMO right now. I wish I was part of the team. You’re part of the team. You’re here right now. We’re building the house with you.

 

0:25:20

(Speaker 1)

It’s okay. You missed out on that part. You get to do the fun parts. The fun part. And like products, we talked a little bit about it. That’s a fun part, sourcing them.

 

0:25:30

(Speaker 1)

But of course, with different things going on in the world and shipping and things like that, did you have any delays on product or was it hard to source some stuff? Most of the insulation came in from Canada or BC. I don’t think we had any delays on that. The only delays I had on the project which caught us off guard was of course a big stall for designing the radon system, which was unexpected. Um, the other problem was, is a system like this had never been put in, in a house in Abbotsford. So we had to recreate plans, a mission controls, how we were going to vent it.

 

0:26:11

(Speaker 1)

Um, then we had to get the engineer to sign off on it, the architect to sign off because the city had no idea what they were looking at. Uh, so then it was the same with the blown in cellulose.

 

0:26:20

(Speaker 3)

The city had no idea how we were blowing in individual cavities, and we had our interior envelope put in by SIGA. So SIGA actually had to go to the city of Abbotsford to show them how the system worked, so that they would sign off on it. So our biggest delays came from wait stop i don’t understand okay i have a question to ask um and not I’m not blaming anything on like the City of Abbotsford or anyone else because they’ve all been very helpful but at the same time this is where you see these big gaps in municipalities so like in the city of Vancouver where you know they’re they likely

 

0:26:55

(Speaker 17)

whole step code five now, but if you go to Abbotsford, there’s, they just were educated for step code three.

 

0:27:01

(Speaker 1)

So here we’re pushing step code five. They don’t understand it. You have to re -explain it. And I find that the education for the builders, because we have education just heaped upon us, like, hey, Todd, take this course. You need to take this course. You want to be able to advance.

 

0:27:17

(Speaker 1)

But Ellsabeth and I could go to the house to talk with the building inspector, and they’re just like, what? They’re completely blank. So then we have to be able to educate. And I’m hoping that something this house can do is help people understand this is actually the process, and it is building a better, cleaner home. but if we had any big delays or costs associated with delays I think it was because we had these gaps where we had to bring everybody up to speed. And the one thing also you mentioned cladding earlier as well that’s one thing where it was hard to find reclaimed cladding and it was part of the original modeling for embodied carbon and low carbon materials and we know it’s possible right but like where do you go to find reclaimed cladding.

 

0:28:01

(Speaker 4)

I remember us being on the phone multiple times and you being like, I can’t find it, what do we do?

 

0:28:06

(Speaker 1)

And then you ended up finding, tell us how you found the reclaimed cladding for the wildfire.

 

0:28:10

(Speaker 10)

That’s a pretty cool story.

 

0:28:13

(Speaker 1)

I have a cabin in the interior and what I was watching was I was watching after the forest fires, I was watching guys, they were clearing the debris and then throwing it through the chipper.

 

0:28:24

(Speaker 4)

So this is like beautiful big first growth trees and they were just hacking them down and chipping them up. So we actually got involved with a small supplier who lives in the interior and he says, hey, I’m, I’ve got logging rights to these areas, but no one wants to buy the product because it was damaged by fire. So he sent us some samples, which I then showed Nick and showed, um, JP and Ritz of the beautiful cedar that he’d had milled.

 

0:28:52

(Speaker 1)

And then we went to Elisabeth and I told her the story and she goes, what a cool story and that meets all my carbon counts. So he actually sold me a B -train of clear cedar for $5 ,000. So we were able to prompt people to look at him as a viable source for cedar product.

 

0:29:11

(Speaker 2)

Hopefully it’ll teach the, uh, the forestry industry that all of this wood is not just garbage because it only burns the outer bark of the tree. So, you know, so, so being able to give some of the smaller guys too, uh, uh, an opportunity to have a platform.

 

0:29:25

(Speaker 1)

Um, you know, Eric, um, helped us out a lot, you know, from, uh, from Vima, uh, with products and he pitched in some products as well to be able to help us with the recycled products.

 

0:29:36

(Speaker 2)

So this is an about phase for our industry where we can’t just consume, consume, consume. So I bet the cedar smell great. Oh, it’s and it is so beautiful. I bet. So beautiful. But that’s nice.

 

0:29:50

(Speaker 2)

We’re making homes of stories now. Like, that’s a great story. It’s not just like an IKEA house where we’re just slapping everything together and being like, OK, well, there’s actual stories or like you said, it looks nicer as well. Well, the material for me has, like you said, a story behind it. So I think a lot of the clients that are coming to us now have caught on with what we’re building.

 

0:30:12

(Speaker 3)

And they’re like, I want to build a home that I can tell a story with. I think it’s really cool. I mean, I remember you telling me the first time you tried to find siding, you dug up a bunch of railroad ties that are a hundred years old in Victorian mills. Yellow cedar. Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:30:25

(Speaker 3)

It wasn’t feasible for this one, but there’s so much cool stuff that we learned from this one.

 

0:30:30

(Speaker 1)

And I’m looking at the costs, like I’m thinking about residing my house going 5 ,000 bucks and some tools. And I know it’s not that easy, but the idea of not taking a skid load of chemically manufactured products and replacing what I have with something that’s sustainable and would have otherwise been in the railroad. bin would have been phenomenal. I have a question about the envelope. We did talk about that very briefly. So on my house they’re building two big houses or my street they’re building two big houses right now and both of them the same.

 

0:30:57

(Speaker 1)

They’re using Tyvek and red tuck tape. That’s a much older methodology. Can you talk about what was done differently in this house and why it is so important that we think about doing things differently moving forward? Because I think this rolls into this bigger discussion of future -proofing our lives for the next 50 years and whatever climate change happens, regardless of why, our homes are ready for it. Yeah, absolutely. So number one is airtightness, right?

 

0:31:21

(Speaker 1)

We want our homes to be airtight, making sure there is no outdoor pollutant that goes through, making sure we keep those assemblies dry. And so airtightness is number one.

 

0:31:30

(Speaker 3)

And very happy that we hit a really good score on our mid construction blower door test on this house at point three one, which means there was a lot of attention to detail. And I’ll leave it up to you to explain. But there was a lot of how the windows were installed and how the SIGA team helped and how like every single detail was just very careful thought of. Yeah and I almost wish Nick was here to speak on this because this was really Nick’s baby. He wanted to build this home in such a manner that again I wanted to be able to achieve the air tightness, the net zero rating. We used a Sega system that I had never used before and Sega graciously opened up their doors and had our team go down there and actually do a course on the system that we used.

 

0:32:15

(Speaker 4)

And then actually David Yao and SIGA is a sponsor, which I’m very happy to say.

 

0:32:21

(Speaker 3)

They also came up and actually walked us through how to prep all the windows, how to fill the holes in the inner envelope. So that was extremely, because I’d done, as Mike says, for me, it would been Tyvek and red tape. That’s what the building inspectors are looking for. So to be able to use such an advanced system where, you know, the roof structure actually tied into the wall structure and then to be able to now, you know, go into the house. Even before we had a front door, we were heating the house with one heater in the middle of the house.

 

0:32:53

(Speaker 4)

So it’s a 3600 square foot home heated by one little block heater and you’d swelter in there.

 

0:32:59

(Speaker 1)

And I think even when we did the Haven program, the educational part, There were no heaters in the place and it was toasty warm in there.

 

0:33:09

(Speaker 2)

So, I mean, this is going to be the wave of the future, you know. So, I mean, a tight envelope, a good mechanical system, all of this science has to be brought to the front. And I think when we talk about climate change, right, we need to be ready for what’s to come that we know. It means like, higher, like hotter summers and drier summers, and maybe a lot more rain and cold in the winter, right? And having a home that can keep the temperature stable inside without relying so much on the mechanical systems that are there for sure to help with that. Making sure we have heat pumps that have heating and cooling, right?

 

0:33:42

(Speaker 2)

Like cooling is becoming more and more important.

 

0:33:44

(Speaker 16)

As Canadians, we don’t like the heat, right?

 

0:33:47

(Speaker 1)

I love the heat, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

0:33:52

(Speaker 3)

Those are things that we weren’t even thinking about five years ago. Like now part of the code after the heat dome a few years ago, part of the code is you can’t have a room that is more than 26 degrees Celsius. And so how are we going to do this, right?

 

0:34:06

(Speaker 4)

This came in really quick because so many people unfortunately died through the heat dome. And so we didn’t have that before.

 

0:34:12

(Speaker 2)

So now we need to get ready for this and having a home that is well insulated airtight and has a good ventilation system with filters will help us just withstand any weather event that is coming our way. And something else that a lot of people think about and we’ve talked about numerous times on the show is also with these types of homes having better air quality because what do we have in our homes? summer and i was just on the i was watching the news yesterday they said it’s gonna get even worse with uh forest fires so 100 it does create a much safer environment so it’s not like the old days where hey well it’s hot open all the windows well i can’t because the smog’s bad so you’re kind of like well i’ll get air blowing through the house but it It’s stinky smoke. But this is very, very, very important, okay?

 

0:34:57

(Speaker 4)

And I’m going to stand on a pulpit for a second and say that. A lot of newer homes are airtight.

 

0:35:03

(Speaker 1)

The problem with the newer home being airtight is all this particulate and garbage from the forest fires comes in and concentrates in there and the air isn’t exchanged. So everyone goes, I’m going to go hide in my house and it could be potentially worse for you from air quality point of view in your house without some of this technology. That’s why this stuff is being included because we don’t know when there’s going to be a forest fire and we need a system that can react when it does to keep the occupants of the home inside safe. This is a very exciting breakthrough and one that not enough people are thinking about. Absolutely.

 

0:35:34

(Speaker 4)

Why you need her?

 

0:35:35

(Speaker 2)

The home should be a safe haven, right?

 

0:35:38

(Speaker 4)

And so it hasn’t been for so many years, really.

 

0:35:41

(Speaker 3)

And so now, yeah, we need to pay more attention to that. That’s a scary concept, that you just said. It hasn’t been a safe haven for many years, and that’s what we rely on our homes for. Why do you think we’re seeing more instances of respiratory issues? It’s endemic now, and it wasn’t even 25 years ago. And I think it’s the fact, well, I think there’s a lot of things.

 

0:36:01

(Speaker 3)

I think kids are spending too much time inside and going out and not playing like we used to. more than that i think that we are in a lot more newer buildings that are better built but perhaps haven’t taken into account the air exchange like a window is a great way to see even like carpet and all of that right like if you have something today and they said to another interior designer was doing some research and they said you don’t realize when you’re stepping on the floor and things going your body and i was like oh that’s this is a lot. There’s a lot of science to building that has gone ignored. And at this point, as we build for a cleaner future, you have to start taking all this stuff into consideration.

 

0:36:41

(Speaker 2)

Yeah. Where does the product come from? How is it manufactured? How does it affect my family’s health?

 

0:36:46

(Speaker 4)

Yeah, we could talk to you guys about this forever.

 

0:36:49

(Speaker 15)

We probably will.

 

0:36:51

(Speaker 14)

But just before we go, what, because it’s such a unique project now that we’re nearing the end of completion, what surprised you the most about this project?

 

0:37:05

(Speaker 2)

Really, the collaboration.

 

0:37:06

(Speaker 4)

I really, really, I mean, we keep stressing this, but for us, as the Energy and Carbon advisors, to be involved that early and meeting the homeowners, like some projects, we never meet the homeowners.

 

0:37:18

(Speaker 2)

So how am I supposed to understand what they want for their home, how they live in it? You know, because this is also part of our consulting, right? It’s like, how do you live in your home? Like, you know, what kind of temperature do you like? How do you, you know, integrate all of that into your daily life, right?

 

0:37:31

(Speaker 3)

Like we don’t go into modeling as detailed as that, but it’s important for us to understand how they’re going to live in the house.

 

0:37:38

(Speaker 1)

And we rarely meet the homeowners, but meeting them on the first day and being like, oh, this is, you know, and it also builds trust, right? Like it wants us to do better. It wants us to do better because now we have a family that we care about, that that we want to help right so it’s not just another client it’s really like being part of this this of course that’s a team and a family and exactly and like looking at okay well if you’re having an issue there then how do we solve this right it’s not like oh well they are having an issue that’s their problem right like it’s not like that at all no and this is something i see this in a lot of projects as people go through the projectsI’m talking about homeowners there’s highs and lows peaks and valleys right because there’s things we can’t control the inspector says to do this and that I think this process has been a lot. easier because as things have happened, they’ve had us. We could give them more perspective. We could give them a different way of thinking about it, but we could also assure them that everything’s going to be okay and that Elisabeth has your back or Todd has your back.

 

0:38:38

(Speaker 1)

What made this project very special for me being a part of it was just, again, the people like Ritz and JP have become good friends to us. They’re the first clients or not clients, first guests to bring us donuts. Yes, that’s true. And a cute dog. Note to future guests. I guess that brought us donuts in the five years we’ve been doing this.

 

0:38:55

(Speaker 1)

I remember we kicked off this project. We had everyone over to our house, barbecued a couple briskets, and we all kind of talked about what we were going to do. And it was this beautiful exchange of information where it didn’t feel like each of us talking to each other. It just felt like a roundtable discussion.

 

0:39:11

(Speaker 2)

That is probably the most powerful learning I took out of this is how we can all work better together when we work better together.

 

0:39:17

(Speaker 13)

Yeah and it might sound cheesy but it makes the whole work like more enjoyable.

 

0:39:21

(Speaker 2)

Well you know and I’ll touch on this a little bit. I always tell clients welcome to our family when we hire them because really That’s what Mike and Elisabeth is like. We take care of each other like family. I think so many times you watch jobs fall apart or you hear about jobs falling apart and normally it’s when people start pointing.

 

0:39:41

(Speaker 4)

It’s the designer’s fault.

 

0:39:43

(Speaker 2)

It’s the architect’s fault.

 

0:39:44

(Speaker 12)

It’s this person’s fault.

 

0:39:45

(Speaker 2)

And then they start finger pointing and then the client goes, Oh my goodness, I’ve completely lost faith in my team.

 

0:39:51

(Speaker 1)

And now the owner is thinking, I’m over budget because my team isn’t talking.

 

0:39:57

(Speaker 11)

And now it’s a big fight.

 

0:39:58

(Speaker 1)

Whereas now you can have a problem and then tell a homeowner, this is the issue we ran into. These are all the team members we’re going to talk about and we’re going to find five solutions for you. And now the team owner becomes part of that or the homeowner becomes part of that conversation and at a very high level so they understand what the issue was, what the possible solutions are, how is that going to affect the economy. my budget, how’s it affect my schedule? And it’s just a part of the open, natural conversation. So I think making that, and then this is why I like to keep my team intact from project to project, because this is, I’m introducing a client to my family, and if we’re all aligned and thinking along the same lines, then it’s okay, come on in, and we’re gonna take care of you.

 

0:40:43

(Speaker 1)

I think that’s it. We’re done. That’s the end of the episode.

 

0:40:45

(Speaker 3)

The best way it could ever end.

 

0:40:47

(Speaker 1)

Thank you for watching Measure Twice, Cut Once. See you next week. We need your recap, though. Yeah, we do need a recap.

 

0:40:52

(Speaker 3)

Your famous recap. But before we do that, I just want to ask Todd and Elisabeth each, what is one best practice that you would encourage every person, whether in the trades, builder, designer, or homeowner, to take away from this project? Do you want me to go first? Go first. I think I just summarized it, actually, was when you’re interviewing builders, interviewing your team, don’t get caught up right away on the cost. I hear so many clients go, oh, well, this guy was so cheap, I had to hire him.

 

0:41:23

(Speaker 3)

And then four months later, they’re in the midst of a nightmare. So if I was going to have one piece of advice is interview the contractors, understand the system, understand how their contract works, understand their team. Ask them, who is your team? Who are you going to bring into this project? And have them understand and meet everybody. Because if everyone gels, then there isn’t going to be any feelings of misgivings right out of the gate.

 

0:41:49

(Speaker 3)

Because there’s nothing worse than getting into the project and going, oh, I really don’t like that person very much.

 

0:41:54

(Speaker 1)

You’re stuck with them for two years.

 

0:41:56

(Speaker 10)

Because then you’re stuck with them for two years.

 

0:41:57

(Speaker 9)

So it’s nice if you can generate the excitement right out of the gate.

 

0:42:01

(Speaker 2)

You should feel excited about your project. And if you have a problem, know that you’re not alone, that you have a whole family behind you that’s going to help you get through that. And for me, I think what we do is very technical, right? Like, I don’t expect everybody to understand. understand the technicality of everything to do the modeling, the choices, et cetera, et cetera. But understanding the high level concept and be able to ask the right questions is like, don’t be afraid to ask the questions.

 

0:42:26

(Speaker 2)

Like, what does that mean if we install this material over this material? Why is it important that we do that? And why do we want to install the heat pump? What are the benefits? If you don’t know, it’s okay to ask the questions. Not everybody needs to know everything about everything.

 

0:42:44

(Speaker 2)

And so my advice would be just asking the right questions. All the questions. There’s no silly questions. Don’t be afraid to ask the questions. Yeah, exactly. Excellent.

 

0:42:51

(Speaker 2)

Well, This brings us to the end of this episode.

 

0:42:55

(Speaker 1)

I’m sure as we move on, we’ll have to have a follow -up episode, but unfortunately today we have to wrap it up.

 

0:43:01

(Speaker 8)

What I’ve loved about today, this conversation has been amazing.

 

0:43:04

(Speaker 4)

I’ve been involved in this project for three years. I still get inspired by it. At the end of the day, beside you are some awards. Those are not by accident.

 

0:43:12

(Speaker 1)

They are a result of careful consideration and planning prior to the project beginning.

 

0:43:17

(Speaker 7)

And as a result of that careful collaboration, as a result of that planning, as a result of relying on a team of people you trust, facilitated that.

 

0:43:25

(Speaker 2)

That speaks to the efficiency of the building and how well it was built, and that speaks to the team. And what made the building so well -built?

 

0:43:33

(Speaker 4)

Well, obviously, it was designed with a specific intent.

 

0:43:37

(Speaker 2)

It was designed around a certain target as far as carbon goes. And then to hit that target, there were certain materials that were involved, that had to be involved so others weren’t, so they could hit that target. And then you’ve been taking a lot of your spare time, no one pays you for this, to do all these conversations, podcasts, educational opportunities. And the impact, the homeowners are getting one of the most amazing projects in BC and Canada. They are changing the game and they’re helping generously, generously with their time so that the rest of us can take the learning from this project and we too can change the game.

 

0:44:19

(Speaker 2)

I can’t think of a better project than that if I tried. Well, thank you.

 

0:44:22

(Speaker 4)

Thank you. Thank you guys so much.

 

0:44:24

(Speaker 2)

Again, I’m a little sad.

 

0:44:26

(Speaker 4)

I feel like, again, I’m having some FOMO, so maybe I’ll have to come check out the house.

 

0:44:30

(Speaker 6)

Come to the party. Come to the party.

 

0:44:32

(Speaker 5)

Come to the party. There we go. We’re going to have to do one more thing before we go. We have to help one of our listeners win a new barbecue. Speaking of parties. Speaking of parties, absolutely.

 

0:44:46

So if you sat through this episode and you’re thinking, gosh, this is great, but I wish I could barbecue something. Coincidence, we got you covered. All you got to do at the beginning, we said, remember, follow us, like us, follow us and like us. Tell your family, tell your friends, you meet someone on the street who looks interesting, say, hey, check out Metro Twice Cup once. By doing that, You can win a Napoleon Prestige P500 stainless steel natural gas barbecue, courtesy of your friends at FortisBC. All you got to do go to www.havan.ca/measuretwicecutonce . And remember, hit, I know Mike already said this, but follow, please stay connected and never miss an episode. Thanks to our partners, Trail Appliances, FortisBC, BC Housing, Rami Films, J -Pod Creations, and AI Technology and Design. We can’t forget Havan, the Home Builders Association of Vancouver, of which we are all proudly members, is also affiliated with CHBA BC and CHBA National, which means we’re all working together at three different levels to collaborate to create a stronger residential construction industry through education and advocacy. Thank you for listening and see you next time on Measure Twice, Cut Once. Thank you.

0:45:57

Thank you.