Discover the remarkable journey of resurrecting Phoenix House, a home devastated by fire, as the homeowners look to rebuild to the prestigious Zero Carbon certification standard. Join Mike and Jennifer-Lee as they delve into the extraordinary efforts of the homeowner and team of industry experts including Best Builders.
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Co-Host, podcast editor: Jennifer-Lee Gunson: jPod Creations
Co-Host, Mike Freedman, AI Technology & Design
Production: Rami Films
Distributed by Black Press Media: Today in BC.
About the Speaker
TODD BEST, OWNER | PRESIDENT, BEST BUILDERS
Construction has always been instrumental in Todd’s life. Starting at a young age, each summer was spent on-site working for this father, Garry Best, who did commercial builds. Todd’s passion for building was evident early in life and he never doubted that one day he was going to own his own company. In 1994, Todd acquired his Red Seal in carpentry, and by the age of 27 had started Garry Best Design and Construction, which would later be shortened to Best Builders Ltd. In his spare time, Todd enjoys trips to Disneyland with his family and doing work on his hobby farm in Delta.
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Check out photos of the project!
Here's the Full Transcript of this Episode
EPISODE 58: Zero Carbon Phoenix House.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Hey Mike, we’re back with season seven of JP’s podcast, Measure Twice, Cut Once.
MIKE:
Hey Jennifer, how the heck are you? Cannot believe here we are in season seven, JP’s 50th anniversary year, and what an exciting season it’s been so far. We’ve been looking at building and renovating high-performance homes, energy choices, design and building solutions, and components that make up these amazing homes that we are building today.
JENNIFER-LEE:
And we have a stellar lineup of industry experts to walk us through the latest in the building science and the choices available to build and design the home right for you. And of course, we’ve got one of our favorites. I think this is his fourth time here. I think he should get a jacket. Todd Best from Best Builders.
MIKE:
Before we start chatting with Todd, I want to introduce everyone to JP, just a absolutely amazing person. He and his wife, Ritz, are doing something very special. And as you get to know them, what you’re going to understand is they are very special people. And they’ve turned what could possibly be one of the biggest tragedies anyone could ever suffer into an opportunity to not only rebuild their lives but show us all a path forward to a better way of construction. That alone, forget about the fact that there’s such wonderful people, that alone makes this such an amazing conversation. I’m so excited to be a part of and so honored to be a part of. So, JP, can you introduce yourself please to our audience as a first timer here on Measure Twice, Cut Once and tell us a little about yourself.
JP:
Well, thank you for having us. This is my first time on any podcast ever, so I’m excited to be here. To give you a bit of background, my wife, and my family, in 2022, we lost our house to a fire. Thankfully, it wasn’t a tragedy. We didn’t lose anybody, but we lost everything. And from that perspective, we embarked on the journey of how do you rebuild a house? How do you do it? How do you build it better? What challenges, what options, what to avoid and all the pitfalls? And we’ve decided to share that journey with everybody and to challenge ourselves and the industry to see if we can build a house that is leading the country in terms of being green and creating a bit of an opportunity to have a legacy. Everybody wants to do something better, but we actually had the opportunity, and we sort of jumped on it. And that sort of had led us to this team and to Todd and to you and to HAVAN. And this is the story.
MIKE:
It has been a really amazing project for a lot of reasons. Can you give us a little bit of backstory beyond the fire itself? What happened afterwards? How did you come to this avenue where you wanted to build one of the lowest carbon houses in North America, where you wanted to do something really unique instead of doing what’s easier, which is to do what everyone does?
JP:
So, it didn’t start off that way. It started with, we lost our house, now what? Now we’ve never built a home before. So, we didn’t know what we didn’t know. We did know that we were terrified in terms of getting taken advantage of or wasting money because you get this big check from the insurance company, like, okay, go build a house. Like, I have no idea what to do. And I’ve been in the car business for 30 years. And the only business that maybe has a worse reputation or perceived reputation is the construction industry in terms of who can be taken advantage of and what is and what isn’t. And we first reached out to a friend of Ritz’s by the name of Murray Frank. And Murray was wonderful and very gracious and generous in saying, look, I don’t build houses, but I know the right people that do. And at very least, I’ll make sure you guys don’t get taken advantage of. And that led us to the introduction to Todd. And through Todd and the relationship we found with him, we were able to start being a little bit more at ease that maybe there really are good people in the industry. Maybe there are people that we can start to trust and build a team from. And the whole thing has turned from potentially one of the most stressful things in our lives to one of the most fun things we’ve been doing. Since we’ve been together. it’s turned into a remarkable journey. But the whole zero carbon built on itself. It started with, we can build a house. Can we maybe build a step five house at the same price as a step three house? And then it was, well, can we build a net zero? And then, can we build the first zero carbon house? And that was where we started putting together the team of Nick Bray Architecture in terms of, here’s what we can do. And then we brought in Elizabeth from CarbonWise, and here’s how we can measure. And then we brought in Form Collective. And we started bringing yourself in and started realizing that we can actually do this, build a house that is the 2032 national standard, build it on a reasonable BC budget, and teach everybody how we’re doing it. This is not a for-profit thing. This is, we’re not a, I’m not a developer. This is the house we’re going to live in. But we wanted to create a legacy for our kids to say, look, we had the chance of doing something better and we did it and we didn’t do it selfishly. And I know it sounds like you’re kind of waving your own banner, but we thought, well, why not us? And here we are.
JENNIFER-LEE:
And besides getting introduced to Todd, did you do any research about Todd and Best Builders? Like, did you take a look at websites? Did you interview him? Any questions? Did you look at other builders?
Todd:
That always scared him.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Yeah.
JP:
So, the way it worked was Murray brought us Todd. And we looked up Todd and was like, okay, there’s no way this guy would even talk to us. You know, when you look at Todd’s background and his website, he builds the lottery dream homes. And this is not a lottery dream home. So, the way the insurance company works is they have to triple bid the amounts and then they choose, here’s your budget and they can choose your builder. So, we were allowed to bring in one bidder and the insurance company brought in the other two. And when we all showed up on site for the first time, Todd, myself, and my wife, Ritz, we started clicking. Like, you know how some people you just instantly get along with and there’s an instant formation of trust? Well, that started right there. And one of the things that at the end of it was they were going to do a tour of the burn site. And Todd was the only one that better say like, I’m not sending my guys in here without hazmat and so on and so forth. And that really triggered us into realizing there’s a difference in how people care about other people. And if he cared that much about his staff, then that would kind of, hopefully he would care that much about us. And it was the only one who did that. And I’m sure everyone else is great and wonderful companies can build a nice house, but we started to notice a tangible difference in the ethics or the morals at the beginning. And that’s where we started realizing, well, Todd’s our guy. And then what we had to do was how do we convince Todd to take this small project on, because we had the ability to say that we know that this isn’t what you normally do, would you consider doing it? And we were very, very grateful that he said yes.
MIKE:
So, this is a unique project for a lot of reasons. The methodology to how this home is being built and constructed, and we’re going to get into that a little bit later, is unique, but from my perspective as part of this team, what I think is probably one of the most unique parts is how it’s being designed. Typically, when a home is designed, it first goes to an architect, then it would go to the energy modeling, then it would go to the interior design team, and then it would finally go its way to the builder, and then, you know, eventually people like myself What’s amazing is this home, all of us are working simultaneously together, which is unheard of. And as a result of that, there’s two parts to that. One, there’s a limited budget, right? There’s always a finite number that we have to work with. And second of all, as a result of that level of collaboration, which is so unique, we are comfortably able to hit that budget and work together to support each other. That’s really, really special. So can you guys talk about that integrated design process and what’s working so well about it? I mean, I’m going to start with Todd, because you live and sleep, eat and breathe this stuff every single day. Yeah. So what makes this so unique, how we’re working together?
TODD:
Well, I mean, this is something we try to do often, but I mean, you find in this industry, you know, the owners will go to the architect and they’ll speak with the architect and then they don’t want to divulge what their budget is. And then they’re surprised when this guy comes in at X and this guy comes in at Y. Why is my house so expensive? When JP and I were talking about the budget and he was like, well, you know, I don’t know if I’ve got the kind of budget that would interest you. And I’m thinking like, well, what if we tried something different? I said, I’ve been waiting to try this. What if I bring in everybody at the same time? We’ll interview everybody. We’ll all sit down at the boardroom and we’ll create a plan together. Now, everyone’s on board with the money. They know how much we’re going to spend. Everyone understands what the budget is. at the forefront. So everyone has to be honest, though, with this system, including the owner. These are sort of my range. And then, you know, guys like yourself, the engineers, we all sat with JP and Ritz and said, this is what we can give you. This is what you can have. These are the parameters you can work within. And that because of that, the entire team now can face problems as they come up. So no one has to worry about, oh, this is going to be my fault or, oh, this is my problem to deal with alone. It’s not. It’s our problem to deal with the entire teams. And I think that brings the level of comfort back to the client, who again, for an industry that is not always had the best reputation, to be able to start on the right foot by saying, this is a team you trust. This is my life savings I’m putting in your hand. Please don’t tell me it’s 30% more and surprise me. But we can now build a beautiful finished home that’s going to last forever, regardless of whether it’s a carbon or a net zero. But I think it’s just the process itself, which will gain more trust in our in our industry as a whole.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Aren’t insurance jobs, though, a little tricky, too, because you have to be on budget. So is it important to have the right people in place?
TODD:
Well, we’ve done a fair bit of insurance jobs, so I mean, ideally, you know insurance isn’t looking to give you a lottery win. So, they basically, you know, for JP his home was, you know, a spec, a typical spec home on a road of spec homes. You know, it was probably built to step code zero. You know, and when you suffered the loss their biggest thing was we’ll give you a code upgrade if you go to Step Code Three. So even when you had three guys in there, the problem is insurance companies has lowest bid wins, not best bid wins. So, they literally drive the prices down, which only makes the owner suffer. And then anything above and beyond, the owner then has to supplement. So, you know, our goal was that, you know, we didn’t get, we got, we got a good settlement. You know, it was, you know, somewhat fair if we were going to build the same house. So our thing now is to be able to go to all our partners and instead of it being a Best Builders project, this is an everybody. So we want everybody.
JP:
It’s a real collaborative effort.
TODD:
Yeah, so I don’t wanna be, as much as everyone says, hey Todd, you’re driving the boat, you’re the captain. That’s not how I’m looking at it because every time I run into a problem with low voltage, I’m not a low voltage guy, that’s the low voltage guy. If I have a problem with energy consultants, everything goes through Elizabeth, or I talk to Nick. So, it’s everybody all the time talking. So, this has been a fun project for me. I’ve been doing this for 35 years. And, you know, you keep trying to do this, but everyone’s always so guarded. So, it’s been nice to attack a project in such a manner that everybody feels like they’ve got a bit of skin in the game.
MIKE:
A lot of radical candor and a lot of radical transparency. Yeah. I can say this as a homeowner myself, when we buy a house, it’s usually the single greatest investment we have, and it can either be a source of pride or a source of stress. JP, how has this integrated design approach and working with this team helped make it less stressful for you? In other words, you’re the most relaxed homeowner I’ve ever worked with, literally.
JENNIFER-LEE:
He seems really chill right now, too.
JP:
Well, that’s what it is. It’s the gummies I took before I got there.
MIKE:
But honestly, like, I think a lot of it has to do with the team that Todd’s built. So how has that made it easier for you to do this process and how are you getting sleep at night as a result of it?
JP:
Well, Ritz and I are both entrepreneurs. And as an entrepreneur, you begin to realize you hire smart people so they can tell you what to do and not so you can tell them what to do. And when we were able to bring this team together, first it started with Todd, and then Nick Bray, and then Elizabeth from CarbonWise, and then Formed Collective, and then yourself, it was really, Ritz and I sat back and sort of said, okay, you guys kind of have carte blanche. Tell us what we can have. Our needs are pretty simple. We didn’t want a fancier house. We wanted a better house. A higher quality home. I didn’t need a media room and I don’t need a swimming pool. I just want a house I can go, that’s not going to blow down in 80 years. It’s going to be that house and house is going to be better for the environment. So when we were able to have those conversations, everybody, everyone said, this is, we kind of put this challenge that this is our goal. Can we build this? How do you build this? And how do you build this without constriction from us? If Nick came, here’s our design, what do you think? Great. We’re just happy to have a home again. And we’re trusting the team that’s gonna be a remarkable home, but we’re trying very consciously to let everybody tell us this is the best way to do it. So instead of working around us, it’s okay. If this is the better, fantastic, great. We only see this as win-win. We’re getting a wonderful home. We’re getting the best out of everybody, because everyone’s invested in it, because we’re allowing them to do what they do. We’re allowing, you know, a remarkable architect to give us a design challenge that challenges him. And same thing with energy and same thing with low voltages. Go for it. And we’re just happy to have the house back. And it’s turned out that the house we’ve gotten is stunning. and is well built and designed beautifully and very thoughtfully, but also, we’re building it better, not fancier. So, the whole collaborative thing has been remarkable.
MIKE:
And we didn’t mention one important constraint as well. This isn’t just a standard home. This is a multi-generational home with numerous families living in it. And there were some additional issues or challenges, I guess, for lack of a better word, to doing that as well. So that was one of the other things that this team was able to overcome very easily.
JP:
Yeah, so we have a family. I’ve got my 11-year-old son, my nephew’s there, my sister-in-law’s there, my mother-in-law’s there, and she’s aging in place, she’s in her 70s. So, this is a house that not only just had to be green, but had to be very flexible. We live together, but we have a suite, as you might call it. We want everyone to live together, but separately, but also to grow together. So, we didn’t just need a house that was green and ooh-ahh stuff, but also a house that was flexible. And Nick was able to design a house that has a suite that can be one bedroom, two bedrooms, or three bedrooms. Is it going to be small? Is it going to grow? How do we build these things into place? So, there’s a lot of flex built into that, things that we didn’t even think about. And that was really cool about having the team is people bringing ideas to us that we had no, we didn’t know what we didn’t know, and we didn’t know what we were missing. And we would have been happy with a builder box, like great, it’s a new house with nice shiny paint and hardwood floors. But when everybody’s eyes lit up, this is what we can do and this is how far we can push, then we knew we’re onto something special.
JENNIFER-LEE:
It’s always good to have buffer room when you’re living with family, right? Yeah.
JP:
You know, great. Or what is it? The fences make good neighbors, but separate kitchens make great families.
JENNIFER-LEE:
There you go. And obviously it was a little bit of passion of yours to go to Zero Carbon. Did you do any research prior to approaching Todd, or was it Todd that kind of pushed the envelope, so to speak, to get you to move over to Zero Carbon?
JP:
It was Todd that started it. Actually, Murray Frank started it, and then it came to Todd, and then it came to Nick, and then it turned into this what if. And could we do this? And are you open to that? And I get the impression from the team member that they’re not often asked how far they can push. It’s like, can you build me this? And we were open to all of it. We really, then it turned into, yeah, we can do a net zero. We can do step code five. We can do the first zero carbon house in Canada, if you’re interested. And Ritz and I just like, absolutely. How do we do that?
TODD:
And that was Elizabeth’s idea. That was Elizabeth’s going.
JP:
And she is absolutely brilliant. Elizabeth from CarbonWise has been our gatekeeper. Everything, every product, every consumable goes through here to be vetted. And she’s a young up and comer that’s just going to completely rewrite how this problem works in terms of zero carbon homes.
MIKE:
I got to tell you, I’m very fortunate to be able to, well, for lack of a term, we are on the main stage of the BC Home and Garden shortly this year. I felt very fortunate to be on the stage with some of those people, yourself included. But the one thing about that that really impressed me is every time they talked about you, you deferred and said, no, no, no, I’m just part of the team. This is the team. And that speaks again to the quality of people who are working on this. And for lack of a better term, collaborating and fighting for you guys as well. And that’s, that’s one of the great pleasures when you do this for a living.
JP:
Yeah. It’s a pretty selfless team. It really has been an egoless collaboration where everyone’s giving their very best, but also everyone’s also realizing because this is the first of its kind in Canada, there’s going to be a lot of eyes on it. So, giving their very best is also an important component to it.
MIKE:
Absolutely. Now, I want to get to the part where we dig into the house itself. However, before we do that, we have to take just a couple moments break to thank our amazing podcast partners. So we’ll be right back and then we’re going to dig into what makes this house so darn special. Cool.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Measure Twice, Cut Once is grateful to our podcast partners, FortisBC, BC Housing, and Trail Appliances. Support from our partners helps us share expert knowledge and resources with families looking to build, design, and renovate the home right for you.
Trail Appliances makes everyday life better with the best selection in Western Canada, hassle-free delivery, and a price match guarantee. You’ll always get the best deal. At Trail Appliances, you’ll love buying an appliance as much as you’ll love using it. Affordable, accessible, quality housing is a top of mind issue for many British Columbians.
For BC Housing, creating access to housing solutions that meets everyone’s needs is a guiding principle. BC Housing is working with governments, nonprofits and residential construction industry members to create practical solutions to BC Housing’s challenges. To learn more about BC Housing initiatives, programs and services, go to bchousing.org.
And we all need reliable and efficient equipment for better comfort, health and safety of our homes. Whether you want to adopt some energy saving habits or take on major energy efficiency upgrade, FortisBC can help you save energy. Be sure to visit FortisBC.com where you can also find amazing tips on low and no cost ways to save energy. Plus great information on what FortisBC is doing on low carbon energy with solutions such as renewable and natural gas.
Competition alert, listen and like this episode for your chance to win a Napoleon Prestige P500 stainless steel natural gas barbecue valued at $1,600. Compliments of our podcast partner FortisBC details at www.HAVAN.ca/measuretwicecutonce . Now let’s get back to our guests.
MIKE:
All right, we’re back. So, we were just talking about the team of people who are assembled for this project. Elizabeth is the gatekeeper of materials used. Todd is the gatekeeper for the budget. We have people like myself who are boots in the ground and advocating for specific solutions. Now that this team has been assembled, not unlike the Avengers, now we’ve got to get to work. So, what we’re creating…
TODD
I want to be the Hulk.
MIKE
I thought that was my job.
TODD
Yeah, three lifetimes ago.
MIKE
So let’s talk a little about the house itself, because that’s the end result of all this collaboration is this house. And this house is beyond special. It is the first zero carbon house built in Canada. So, I’d love it if you guys could talk a little about what that means, because of course I know what it is. You guys know what it is, but the people who are watching and listening, I think it’s really important they understand what it is, number one, and number two, why that’s such a valuable methodology to look at when you’re building your next house.
JENNIFER-LEE:
And to be honest, I don’t know what it is, so train me. All going to learn together. It sounds fancy, carbon zero, but tell me what it means.
TODD:
Bougie, right?
JENNIFER-LEE
Bougie, it sounds very bougie.
TODD
Totally bougie. Well, I mean, I can give you, I mean, for me, a simple breakdown. I think this is where we spoke at the home show. We want to try to keep this easy, but I mean, of course, there’s different types of carbon. For me, the base of it and what got me excited about it was less waste to the dump. Now, originally when we talked about the zero carbon, and I trust, of course, Elizabeth for most of this, but her idea, my idea, sorry, I have to watch how much money we spend. Where can I find savings for my client? And when Elizabeth first came to me and said, you know, if we do a carbon neutral home, you don’t have to tear up the foundation. And I’m thinking, I just saved them $200,000. So my immediate thought was, love carbon neutral, plus I can use recycled products. I can use locally made products. We can use products that have been recycled from waste products. So this all automatically got my excitement level going. And then of course, Elizabeth starts running the numbers. And as she sits down and explains this, my mind’s worrying, because I mean, first and foremost, I’m a carpenter. I mean, that’s always who I’ve been. So, I’m thinking of cool recycled products. You know, how am I going to test the foundation? My mind’s already racing from a structural standpoint. And then Elizabeth was then able to sit down with JP and Ritz and go through about how carbon is generated and the different types of carbon, which I thought, you know, for yourself, I mean, you’ve learned a lot in a very short time.
JP:
The learning curve has been like this. And so, we’re studying not just the embedded carbon, which is like what’s in your glass, like what’s physically that. But the life cycle of it, where did it come from? How did it get transported? How does it get used? What happens when you’re done with it? So, we’re measuring the entire lifespan of the carbon of this house to show that, because carbon, the construction industry is a huge contributor to unfortunately, you know, the bad stuff that goes in the environment. And if we can reduce that and realize that there’s savings to be had from a consumer perspective, but it’s also better for the environment at the same time by just making some choices. But you have to be aware of what those choices are. that you can build a better house, be better for the environment and ultimately, hopefully save some money. Now we’re probably not doing the money saving right now because we’re the first one doing it and kind of learn the lessons. But the carbon is, it is a huge, huge component. It’s the windows we choose. It’s the hardwood we put in. It’s everything is measured and actually goes into a calculation for you. This is what the life cycle carbon this house will be.
JENNIFER-LEE:
How do you know you’re using the right materials? Are there like certain companies and for windows and flooring that are like certified for this and then?
TODD:
Well, yes and no. I mean, some companies, I mean, one of the things we want to be very careful of is that we were aligning ourselves with companies that were like minded. So that’s taken some research on us, because, you know, obviously, when we first started this product, we had tons of people come saying, oh, I’ll help. I want to be a sponsor. You have to you can use my tile. You can use my side. And then you look into it and go, well, you know, unfortunately, you know, the criteria of your company and how you manufacture products don’t necessarily meet the criteria we’re trying to match. So, you know, really, we’re taking on this product to show people that you can build what to me is the next level up from net zero, because net zero homes for me, I mean, they’re wonderful, use electric energy, but they don’t take a lot into account for the actual carbon impact. You know, so this is what is truly best for our planet. And the carbon neutral, I think, ticks more boxes. And so aligning ourselves with companies that are starting to move in this direction, how do we manufacture our appliances? What is the building process for how we’re going to create these shingles? You know, some of the siding that we’re using was actually, and I’m so excited about this, I bragged here, was actually a buried train trestle. that one of the companies that we’re using dug up and we’ve split it into yellow cedar siding. Now that wood’s been underground for more than 100 years. But there is endless amounts of it. Now normally that stuff is just stacked out in the woods and left to rot. But what a resource that’s been untapped. So, we can get all of the siding for the house. It’s more beautiful than the materials you can cut down now. So, you know, I’m able to build this home is what I’m hoping to show it and show people this doesn’t have to be like, like something scary. Like don’t make the, you know, sometimes people like net zero, I can’t afford a net zero house. You know, people stop the procedure there. And it’s the same with, okay, well now the next step code is going to be carbon zero and people are going to go home. I’ll never be able to afford a house. Well, it’s not true, because if you pick the right team, you can actually pick the products that best suit you while still taking care of our planet. So I think it’s a really nice kind of a next step beyond net zero. And, you know, this house, we want to basically build a net zero ready carbon zero home.
JP:
So, what we find is everybody wants change unless it affects them, and change is hard to do. So, what we’re trying to do is we’re going to do it. Ritz and I are taking on the burden and we’re paying the checks for it and showing everybody how we did it. So, it’s an open book conversation of this is how we got to what we’re doing. And hopefully someone will replicate it for our industry can say, oh, so that’s how you do it. That’s not that hard, but we’ll be the Guinea pig of doing it first. We’re not doing anything that’s; we’re just doing it all at the same time, and we’re trying to do it at a realistic budget, and to show other homeowners out there that you can do this. There’s some choices you have to make, but if those are the things that you value, then they’re not that hard of a choice to do, and we’re creating that template for you in the beginning.
MIKE:
It’s a pretty simple build, really. But I think you guys have already illustrated this too. You just said, by using the existing foundation, which means we’re not adding additional embodied carbon from the concrete. So, there’s benefit number one and benefit number two is a $200,000 savings. And that will help offset some of the other changes that are made. So, you’ve already proven that this concept is more financially viable than other concepts.
JP:
And saving months of rent payments you have to do because the foundation is already there. So, all these things add up into the affordability of housing is by putting the team together at the beginning, I think one of the things that we’re doing is by planning so well, we’re saving so much wastage. And when you look at the cost of housing today and the cost of developing, there’s so much wastage in there that if you could just reduce wastage by 10% and look what that cost would be on the average home build to the average consumer, you’re talking five, six, eight years of mortgage payment savings by doing it this way. Well, I mean, look at the house you’re building.
MIKE:
And this is a very pragmatic, tangible way of doing it. Try building. I’m looking at new houses right now. I can’t build a brand-new house for your budget because I’m looking at traditional building methodology. So, you’ve actually proven a way to make housing and new housing more affordable and more attainable for people in BC. So, kudos to you guys, because you’re solving a whole heck of a lot of problems at once. I do have a question, though, and this is just a very general question. So, if I was building, say, a passive house, I can go get certification for that house with Passive House Canada. There are different organizations that certify. When we’re talking a zero carbon house, this is the first of its kind. So is there any sort of certification or any documentation that will validate what you’re saying beyond what Nick and Elizabeth have come up.
JP:
Yeah, it’s not a take our word for it. So, there’s a group called the Living Institute that is part of a US-based firm or company. And we have to go through, we make application to it, which we’ve already done, and they do a national certification. They do measurements, pre-build, post-build. And we’ve checked with them that no one else in Canada has done this, but yeah, this is not a take our word for it component to it. And we actually have UBC and BCIT also going to be studying this because they want the knowledge to pass on as well. BC Hydro has signed on as a partner because they want to study this as well. So yes, we have to document it. We have to get an actual certification. This is not a pretend thing. And then we’re opening the house up to scrutiny. We’re the first, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to be the best. We’ve got a budget and choices we have to make. So, if we can get other people to learn from this, that’s our legacy is that people go, oh great, now we can improve upon it.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Well, and another hard part too, like we were kind of talking about before too, because you guys are pioneers in this, there’s still not a lot of companies that might have products that fit this, like the morals and the values and everything like that. And it really understand what you guys are trying to achieve. So, until there’s more things that come on there too, like more people have choice after you guys.
JP:
Well, we’re finding that there are more companies that you think of, just customers aren’t asking the questions. Now, in 2032, this is required. Like, this is what has to happen. So, whether you want it or not, these are the choices consumers are going to be faced with. And what we’ve been able to do is have companies say, oh, we didn’t even think about that yet. Maybe we start thinking about it now and looking at our products or looking at how it’s produced. But we’ve been able to find like Cosentino Tile. They have a stone that we’re going to be using that is the only net zero stone in the world. Wow. So, they have products like this. They just don’t really have an opportunity to showcase it because it has been the forefront of conversation. And now we’re trying to change the conversation that those choices are already there. You just have to look for them. or companies have to realize that, oh, what I’m doing right now has limited timeframe. I need to start adjusting myself as well.
TODD:
We’re kind of right at the cutting edge of everybody, like knowing this is coming. So, they’ve got products. So, when we approached a lot of people and we did this, you know, luckily being a HAVAN member, I was able to approach a lot of our members and, you know, through HAVAN, they became excited because we wanted to make this a HAVAN, you know, a CHBA project as well and, and have as many members take part. But we gave them an opportunity to say, do you have a product right now that might meet this criteria? And then we can send that product then back through, test the product, is the product certified? Because yes, we still have to go everything through the living lab. So, like we had to submit all our plans, all our products to them to have them say, yes, if you build this house, this will be the net outcome. And then we’ve taken those plans and now that’s what we’ve been now pricing. So, there’s definitely not just a woohoo, let’s be really cool and like a bunch of hippie builders and build something that hopefully has no waste in it. There is a science to it. But if you’re a good certified builder and put a solid plan in place, I would say this would be easy to replicate.
MIKE:
So let’s talk budget for a couple more moments. The budget for the house was what, $1.2, $1.3?
JP:
So, we have a budget about one point, and one of the things we’re trying to do is being very transparent. And we’ve got to build budget about $1.3 million. And it’s not $1.3 million and 75 cents, it’s $1.3 million. And that’s one of the things that we embrace Todd with is the relationship with Todd is honesty and directness. There’s no make you feel better, we’ll take care of it someday. It’s like, okay, here’s what we have. And it was exactly what we have to work with. And everything is, okay, if we can’t meet that, what don’t we put in as opposed to here’s where the overages are. So, we’re trying to do what we’re trying to do on this budget. Now, obviously we have some sponsorship help along the way because they want to showcase stuff to help us out with that. But we think this is a reasonable, I hate to say it, the $1.3 million is a reasonable budget nowadays, but a West Coast budget for not an entry-level house, but not a full-fledged crazy house is where we’re at.
TODD:
And we do want to show people what the actual cost is. So, we do want to make this an open book project so that even though, so if this cost with, let’s say sponsorships comes out at 1.6 million, that’s what we’re going to tell people. Like this project cost us $1.6 million, not 1.3 surprise. We got $300,000, you know, we’re not, we’re not going to do one of those, you know, roll the van away. And I built a house in a day kind of thing. And I built it for 50 bucks. Like we want you to want to dive into, this is how we built the budget. This was the important members of our team. This was the target. And even if we have some problems, I want to be able to express those, you know, to the client. This is where we got surprised. This is what we learned from that surprise. This is what we had to do in order to, you know, quickly readjust our goals so we could still hit our main goal. So, I mean, I want to be able to share all of that to make this like a real, like a real, like this is like the ups and the downs of actually building a house. So, I think it’ll be, I mean, it’s going to be pretty exciting. I’m pretty pumped about it.
JENNIFER-LEE:
The other thing that sometimes people don’t necessarily want to talk about is the timeline and permits. For the timeline, especially with this type of home, did you have any hard time getting municipal permits? Was it the normal wait times? I see you smiling over there. Let me talk to it first.
JP:
So, when we went to the city of Abbotsford, now we took a lot longer to get plans ready because there’s so much planning involved with this. And we went to the city of Abbotsford, which is where we’re building the house. I said, we went in, my wife and I tried to charm them up and here’s what we’re doing and to get everybody on board. They were able to get our first set, our first communications back within five or six days, which I understand is unheard of. Now, I don’t know if that was because we just happened to fall on the top of their, or they did something special for us. I don’t know, but yeah, we had a fire, but the City of Abbotsford has been remarkable in, in being a part of this. And that’s even before they became really a part of the whole process. So they, you know, we’re, we’re anticipating our plans next month, which is seven weeks from application for, we can start putting, you know, do guys to work.
TODD:
Yeah, and we’ve had to offer some incentives. I mean Abbotsford has been, it’s not like Vancouver, where Vancouver here is a Step Code Five. Abbotsford only just adapted Step Code Three. Unfortunately, their building inspectors are just now doing mandatory training for Step Code Three. So, there was a little bit of a, oh, you’re building what? And they weren’t really clear. So when they’re saying, well, oh, no, you have to take out all the concrete. I’m like, no, no, that’s not like we had to educate the city of Abbotsford. And they’ve been the only thing I’ve really enjoyed is there’s been no pushback from that. And what we did, I talked with the head of planning, actually yesterday, and I said we’d like to do an educational series for your building inspectors so they can come out and actually see how we’re putting this together. And they were really excited about that and I think actually we’re just getting ready to go out and see the mayor of Abbotsford because now Abbotsford itself wants to kind of watch the project grow and want to promote the project. I think, yes, there was a bit of, you know, a pushback, but again, this process we want to be able to share as well, because we have found the same in Vancouver. If you’re open and honest with the City of Vancouver and its employees, you get a lot more back from that as opposed to just trying to hammer them all the time, which seems to be the norm. City of Vancouver, they did that. They slowed me down. And I’ve always found a little bit of open, friendly communication. Let them be part of the team and part of the decision-making process. And it does help speed things up. They don’t want you to not build a house. So yeah, the atmosphere has been good so far.
MIKE:
Hey, in all these calculations and all these challenges you had to overcome, How did the driveway factor in all of this, right? Because if it’s a gravel driveway, it’s probably a very different set of equations than if it’s a poor concrete or asphalt driveway. Did that factor in any of this math at all?
JP:
No. It’s my understanding – and again, you have to have Elizabeth on to really communicate this – the components that are measured are the actual building and the building envelope. What we’re trying to do is go well beyond it. So instead of just what’s measured to get our certification, how far can we go? What else can we put in? But you know, there’s a huge amount of embodied carbon in concrete. So, for some extensions, we’re using hempcrete. So, we’re trying to do things along the way, but driveway is, we’re actually having the conversation right now because they want us to narrow our driveway to two spots. And we’re sort of having the conversation, well, if you want density, you have to have some place to park density. But those are conversations that the city is well-intended, but realizes, oh, maybe we have to relook at what we’re doing if we do want greater density and home costs to allow people someplace to actually be in park.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Or you’ll have to draw straws for your family if we get to parking space. Yeah, right, yeah.
TODD:
Yeah. No, it’s been, that’s the same thing. Like you said, my concrete is a big pile of waste. So, you know, for them to drag it all up and put a garden in to be more green is not really, it doesn’t really work here when you’re doing carbon count. You drag all that concrete out and put a bush, well then where does all that concrete go guys? Like you brought a machine here for a day, you dragged all that concrete out, you put it in a big diesel burning dump truck, you drove it out to the landfill and you dumped it in the landfill. How is that any greener than me putting in a 10 by 10 square foot of grass? What if I just left it there and created no pollution? So it’s still trying to convince people that there are ways to be a little more friendly to the environment by just maybe not going too far.
MIKE:
Hey, being the first at anything has its challenges. You have to prove a lot of things to a lot of people. You have to figure out a lot of things. But at the end, you’ve also created something very special, something beautiful, and something that’s going to outlast all of us. And that’ll be a testament to you guys that my grandchildren go by and go, hey, grandpa worked on that house way back when, right? Because it’ll still be standing. It’s not a disposable house. And that’s the one thing I’ve learned doing this is, like, if we go to the UK, a house is 500 years old. It’s just about ready for a renovation, right? So we’re thinking about, we’re starting to think a little bit more forward and a little bit longer term, which is wonderful. But unfortunately, we only have a certain amount of time because I have a feeling we could probably talk about this forever and we will. We just won’t be able to do it while we’re recording. And there’s so many different lessons learned. And I’m going to try to summarize as many of them as I can. The first lesson is, when something bad happens, you find the right people to help you rebuild your lives. And second of all, when you found the right person, they will help put together an amazing team of people to collaborate on your behalf. And lastly, being the first does have its challenges. It takes courage and it takes vision. But if you have those things and you’re working with a great group of people, you can achieve amazing things. As an example, the first zero carbon house in Canada. So, hats off to both of you, hats off to Ritz and hats off to the rest of the team as well, because I think you guys are creating something incredibly special and that’s going to be a testament to both of you for a very long time.
TODD:
Even though I own a totally different business, if you want to podcast, I’m cool.
JENNIFER-LEE:
I would like to be part of your team because it seems like you guys are just having such a great time.
JP:
We’re having fun. Literally, we took the whole team go-karting and we had a barbecue at Mike’s. This whole team is turning into this team of friends now that’s doing something. And it’s actually a part of the whole fun process of it. It’s not compartmentalized.
TODD:
No. It’s totally collaborative. Having coached sports myself for so long, you realize you can take a team of kids, a team of adults in this case, that are just having a lot of fun and care for one another, and that team will beat the pants off a team with one or two all-stars. because that team cares about one another and sets each other up for success. So, I think with us, we’re a team of all like-minded, easygoing, let’s share the stress. If one team member is stressed, JP calls me in the morning and goes, Todd, how are you doing today? And I’m like, man, I’m so, I got so many, he goes, you know what, let me take a couple of those emails off you today. And we do that back and forth. Now, how many clients will do that for their builder, as opposed to just dump everything. Or now I can hand stuff off to my oldest son, who’s now, you know, taking steps up to help, to help dad get ready to retire. So my oldest son is all, and he’s learning all about this stuff. This has just been like overall, like, you know, Mike and I have been friends now for how long we’ve been friends?
MIKE:
Five, six years.
TODD:
Five or six years. And it feels like we’ve been friends for 20. Yeah. You know, but you’re always calling and just say, Hey Todd, how you doing today?
MIKE:
Look, I did all the planning for the home show, right? To support the team because you, you, you were sick and you guys are busy and that’s what we do. We help each other. So. Yeah.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Very enjoyable. I’m jealous. I want to come work.
TODD:
You can do the regular podcast.
JENNIFER-LEE:
There we go. I’ll just be on the site. You can interview all the guys. I like that idea.
JP:
We are doing a documentary on it. So, we can, I’d love to have you in there and to talk because we, our whole thing is, can we, it’s not just, can we do this for ourselves, but how do we get other people to see this and become aware of this possible?
JENNIFER-LEE:
Perfect. I’m in.
MIKE:
So, it has been an amazing conversation. And Jennifer, I know that, you know, we’ve been chatting a little bit more intimately and about some stuff because we’re all living, eating, sleeping and breathing it, but you did a great job keeping along.
JENNIFER-LEE:
And I feel just because you’re like my work husband. So, I was like, am I not part of this right now? You’re not part of it yet.
MIKE:
But before we go, we do have to say quickly, thank you to all our viewers and our listeners and to task everyone to like, and listen to this episode for two reasons. One, you get to meet amazing people like Todd and JP, and two, you have a chance to win a beautiful Napoleon Prestige P500 natural stainless-steel barbecue valued at about $1,600. Compliments of our amazing podcast partners and our friends at FortisBC. And if you want more details about that, you can go to www.HAVAN.ca/measuretwicecutonce .
JENNIFER-LEE:
And just before we end, do you guys have one more tip for the consumer?
JP:
The one thing I would leave everybody with is build a team before you build a house. Trust the person you’re talking to, interview everybody. Don’t feel like you can be bullied. It’s okay to say no and go with your gut. Building the team before you build the house, I can’t imagine doing it any other way.
TODD:
Yeah, that’s awesome.
JENNIFER-LEE
You got to top that now.
TODD
Well, how do you? That’s the way you always tell everybody is don’t worry about the money so much. Like when you’re looking for the team, like look for your builder, look for the architect. Either one, it doesn’t matter who you hire first, but architect and builder should work together and then find out who they work best with. Cause that’s what keeps the difficulty out of it. So, you know, so many people go in and go, I’ve only got 50 bucks. What can I build for 50 bucks? Well, why wouldn’t you hire someone that you trust that might say, you know what, 50 bucks undoable, but 75 bucks, I can give you the world. And then have slots where you should start your conversation. So, hire the best team you can and they’ll build you the best home possible. Yeah.
JP:
Hire someone who’ll tell you no.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Yeah. Perfect. You want an honest relationship. Yeah. Oh, yes. Thank you guys so much for coming.
JP:
Thanks for having us on and thanks for supporting our project. I mean, thank you to HAVAN for doing this as well, because they’ve stepped on and really helped us with, with PR and marketing this. So, we’re just very grateful for everybody.
JENNIFER-LEE:
And for notes and links to everything mentioned on today’s episode, including resources, as well as photos of the project shared by Todd and JP, go to www.HAVAN.ca/measuretwicecutonce . Thank you to Trail Appliances, FortisBC, BC Housing, Rami Films, Jpod Creations, and AI Technology and Design. It takes a team to build a home, as we learned today, and a team to build this podcast.
TODD:
Amen. Well played.
JENNIFER-LEE:
Thank you for joining us. See you next week.
