Meet Laurel James, the design-half of the award-winning Novell Design Build team. Passionate about building homes for families of all configurations, Laurel approaches design with a curious and thoughtful eye to ensure the dwelling spaces nurture our creature comforts. Listen in as Laurel shares her thoughts on multi-family dwellings and the latest provincial regulations.
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Co-Host, podcast editor: Jennifer-Lee Gunson: jPod Creations
Co-Host, Mike Freedman, AI Technology & Design
Production: Rami Films
Distributed by Black Press Media: Today in BC.
About the Speaker
Laurel James, BID LEED AP
Director & Principal Designer | Co-Owner Novell Design Build
Laurel graduated from the Faculty of Architecture at the University of Manitoba with a Bachelor’s of Interior Design. Her career started in the commercial realm as designer and project manager in hospitality, retail, airport and interpretive museum projects for 10 years prior to Novell. She is the first chair of HAVAN’s Women’s Council.
RESOURCES SHARED BY LAUREL: Check out Laurel’s recent blog on the Missing Middle.
Listen and like for your chance to win a gas BBQ compliments of our Podcast Partner FortisBC.
Here's the Full Transcript of this Episode
EPISODE 61: Multi-Family Homes.
JENNIFER-LEE
Mike, we’re back for season seven of HAVAN’s podcast, Measure Twice, Cut Once.
MIKE
Hey, Jennifer Lee, it is great to be back. And this is an exciting season because we’re looking at a lot of different things, including building and renovating high performance homes, as well as talking about energy choices, which are going to become a bigger and bigger part of the conversation and the components that make up the homes that we’re building today.
JENNIFER-LEE
Yeah, it’s also very interesting to learn about new housing legislation as well, as it definitely impacts homeowners and the potential to unlock home equity.
MIKE
Well, I think we ought to get into it. And this is going to be a really exciting episode. We have Laurel James, who’s the director and principal designer and co-owner of Novell Design Build. And we’re going to talk about new multifamily regulations. And it’s going to be a great conversation. Actually, Laurel was one of the first people I met when I joined the association years ago. And she’s just been a phenomenal resource, a wealth of knowledge, and a heck of a great person to talk to. So, how’s that for a pretty good build up?
LAUREL
Thanks so much, Mike.
JENNIFER-LEE
That’s great. And let’s mention she heads up the Women’s Council.
MIKE
Absolutely. Co-chair of the Women’s Council as well. And I say this every time. What an amazing group of people who are trying to create equity in our industry. And what I hope is they’re so successful that by the time my daughter starts in the industry, we won’t need a Women’s Council anymore. So, thank you for doing what you do there as well.
JENNIFER-LEE
Let’s hope. And Rachel’s already got a tool set. I’ve seen her play with it.
MIKE
She’s going to be running my company in a couple more years.
JENNIFER-LEE
There we go. I was going to say, I don’t know Laurel and other people might not know her. So, which is funny because we’ve been human members for a long time. So, I want to get to know you now. And so do our listeners. Tell us a little bit about Laurel, your story.
LAUREL
Oh, thank you guys so much. And thanks for having me. It’s such a pleasure to be here. And I am, as you said, principal designer and co-owner at Novelle Design Build. My husband and I started this company way back when. At first, I actually just was going to start him, help him get started off. He’s always been a carpenter and a builder himself and comes from a family of contractors. And so, I just took a year off of what I was doing, which was commercial design. I used to work and do airport design and project management, hospitality and large retail and that kind of stuff. And after about six months, I knew I wasn’t going back because we were having too much fun. So that was about 18, 19 years ago now. And we have been designing and building homes here in Lower Mainland ever since and having a great time.
JENNIFER-LEE
And you’ve passed the test so you can work with your partner.
LAUREL
Yes. Oh, actually, I have to say that’s one of the gems of it. For whatever magical reason, he knows what I don’t know and vice versa. And we just tend to, you know, lift each other up and complete the circle in some way. So yeah, we work really well together.
MIKE
That’s the sign of a good partnership. And what I like about what you guys do is now we have a lot more people entering the design build phase. We’re shifting our methodology, but you are one of the original design builders in this market. Can you talk a little about what design build is and just give us a little overview of what your company does.
LAUREL
Oh, thank you for that. Yeah, it’s we sort of refer to ourselves as truly design build, actually, because we were founded by both a designer and a builder, as opposed to a construction company that sort of takes in or absorbs a design component to what they do. So, everything that we do, all of our systems, our workflows, all of our process has been built from the professional perspective of both a designer and a builder. I’ve got a project management background as well. So, it’s all of that. And we sort of set out to, you know, set the bar high for ourselves in terms of, you know, a level of professionalism and distinction, which is also why we are HAVAN members and have been you know, proud to be so for such a long time. But it is that distinction is that, you know, we’ve been honing our systems over the years to really sort of have that process bounce back and forth between good design, thoughtfulness on that perspective, and then excellent craftsmanship and execution on the build side.
JENNIFER-LEE
And what are some of the other types of projects and municipalities you’ve worked in? Just a quick little overview. You’ve done so many, so.
LAUREL
For sure. Yeah, we’ve done hundreds and hundreds. I mean, we work across Lower Mainland. We are based in Vancouver. Love working in Vancouver. Also, the North Shore, Burnaby, and New West. Those are sort of our mainstays. And but we’re right now completing a project out in Port Moody. We’re working potentially out to Tsawwassen and Surrey and beyond. So, this is sort of our core, but we really try and throw ourselves flung arc. our big differentiator is that design build element. And so, wherever we can bring value, where we can come into the process and help a homeowner right from the start, when there are questions like, should I tear down or should I build new? Should I look at multiple dwellings versus, you know, laneway or what have you, whatever the questions are, we can help navigate that along the way with a holistic approach and bring some efficiency and holistic questions to the table.
MIKE
One of the things we love, about talking to experienced professionals is this, when you look around every building you see, had to be figured out for the first time. Someone had to figure it out and then someone else scaled it and it became something we see all the time. You have a number of firsts under your umbrella as well. Do you want to talk about some of the firsts that you were part of as well? Because these are important conversations because these firsts become standard later. So, what we see you doing now, we can expect to be something that we’re all going to have in our lives in the future. So, let’s talk about what you did and maybe some of the things that you’re currently doing.
LAUREL
Oh, I love that. Well, thank you. Yeah, and we have to get better at talking about the things we do, because to be honest, we haven’t historically, we haven’t been great at getting these sorts of firsts and stories out there, but we do love to innovate. Like it’s not uncommon. I was just sharing the other day with our team, like Ant came home and he didn’t have something. So, he just built himself a tool. Like he just built himself a tool to get something done on his own. And I was like, what do you mean you like? So, he’s you know, he has an incredibly creative and innovative mind even as a builder. But also, we’re really open to challenges and really eager to sort of take take some of these things on for the first time. So, we are really proud to have built the first cistern in Burnaby for a single-family home. Of course, there are cisterns, which is underwater. rainwater capture and storage for use in irrigation. We used it for flushing toilets as well and that kind of thing. It’s becoming more and more common for commercial, but from a residential perspective, People don’t tend to think about that, but that’s definitely something, and I know we’re going to get into it with multiplexes, which is a component of it. So, we had to navigate that from an engineering perspective and jurisdictional perspective. And it was a really fun challenge. But also, we made these homeowners who were from Australia and had a real appreciation for water shortages, provided them with a really sustainable system. We also built one of the first coach houses in West Vancouver. West Vancouver’s been quite slow, notoriously, to sort of pick up on this whole laneway and or carriage house or coach house approach. And navigating that was really interesting and much more arduous. And we really are thankful for patient clients that, you know, we went through the, I think it was a number of years to just work through the zoning and jurisdictional red tape there.
JENNIFER-LEE
A personal first for you is this is your first podcast. Oh, that is so true. It is. That’s right. There we go. We’re excited to have you here. And I know that I would like you to explain a little bit more to me about Budda Novella Outdoors.
MIKE
This is my favorite one actually.
JENNIFER-LEE
What is it? Because I actually don’t know anything about it. And Mike does because you guys are besties.
LAUREL
One of our differentiators is design build. The other one is sort of our breadth of service. We’re one of the few companies that really are end-to-end. provide that design build service from start to finish. But the start being like an idea, I just need to get more people around the table. I want to, you know, a place for my aging parents or what have you. So right at the inception of things. And then on the opposite end of things, we really sort of saw a need for an extension of that service out to the outdoors. And especially with the pandemic, as you guys know, well, we all had to learn to work from home and think of alternative ways to use our outdoor spaces and rooms. And so, we developed a fleet of signature sheds that are available. So, it’s sort of like a luxury outdoor space that is just sort of found space over and above it. And then as well, it allows us to offer the landscaping side of your build, which is something that often gets sort of left behind or not necessarily thought through. That’s so smart.
JENNIFER-LEE
I’ll take one. I was going to say, I was going to say it’s so smart because both Mike and I were excited. That’s why we’re like, oh, that’s great. But again, going for the whole concept, because, you know, we’ve heard about design build a lot, but everyone forgets that like there’s still another component to which is landscaping and landscaping is always a separate entity. And it’s neat now of like, I’ve never heard of that. It’s like, you’re really design built because you’re doing it all. And they all like, as you can hear. throughout the rest of our episodes, they all reflect each other, and they all go hand in hand. So, it’s so important.
LAUREL
Oh, well said. Absolutely. And it’s what’s the other key part of that design build is that those, you know, the foundational programming that you do at the start of the process carries through. So, when we’re talking about landscaping and outdoor rooms, we’re still remembering what was important, what was that initial intent, you know, way back at the start of the project.
MIKE
I like outdoor rooms because they’re outdoor rooms and I’m a huge proponent of using all the space, extending our space and spending time outside. The only challenge is those outdoor rooms are not considered part of your conventional living space. So even though the legislation has changed significantly, I still can’t have my escape room. I mean, outdoor room, not where I escape to while I escape my family out there.
JENNIFER-LEE
Oh, that type of escape room, like where you solve puzzles.
MIKE
It can be a noun and a verb. But that doesn’t fall under the legislation. So, I think we should clarify very quickly, because the provincial regulations have changed, and that’s going to have an impact on all of us. So even though my outdoor space doesn’t fall under that, can you talk a little about What are some of the opportunities that are facing us currently short-term and long-term as a result of changes to these legislations and how we can start to look at ways to unlock the potential hidden value in our property to leverage these opportunities?
LAUREL
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think I’ve heard it on this very podcast, you guys saying a sea change is coming and I think That’s where we’re at. Things are moving and we have very bold regulatory change coming from the provincial side of things that the province is basically mandating. that all municipalities that are over 5,000 people get serious and start allowing multiple dwellings on the home. So much so that it’s a minimum of three to four units. And they’re looking at a minimum of four plexes and three stories on lots that are over 3,014 square feet. So, you know, this is This is huge because it’s more choices, and that’s what we need. I mean, that’s what we need in Lower Mainland, and to really sort of turn the tide in terms of what can be affordable, what can be attainable.
MIKE
- So, we’re basically changing the legislation. Yeah. If we’re summarizing it correctly, we’re all operating from the same place. The legislation is changing to allow us to densify our properties and in certain cases over and above what the municipalities might have previously allowed us to do on the same square footage.
LAUREL
That is correct. That is correct. The way things are going and it’s, it’s, as I said, it’s very bold. It basically does away with the lot that is only a single-family home and with minimal choices available to the homeowner. So
JENNIFER-LEE
And I think it’s great because I might go to certain have talked about it before on multiple podcasts but I grew up in New Westminster, I grew up in Queens Park, not there were a few of them but like we built we were able to build a duplex and it’s fine because everyone will growing up because there’s all these big homes in Queens Park, a lot of them are Victorian heritage. And everyone would be like, oh, you live in a duplex? Like, how do you all fit in there? And I was like, but then they would like come in, they’re like, oh, this is like a full house. Like a lot of people just didn’t understand the concept of duplex. And so now it’s interesting to me that they’re becoming more accepted. adopted in different municipalities because and everyone it’s like a crease. I was like, I want a duplex now or a fourplex. And I was like, it wasn’t cool when I was a kid.
LAUREL
Oh, no, now it’s got cachet. Now it’s like, I got a duplex. And yeah, it’s a badge of honor. It’s awesome.
JENNIFER-LEE
And they are big, like people don’t realize like how big they can be. Like they are full houses. They just are more They’re together on a property.
LAUREL
They’re like friends. Absolutely. And I think we’re an international city and this is a global concept, really, right? This is, you know, multi-generational considerations. It allows families to be together. It allows aging in place. It brings all of these things together and helps with affordability. It’s also fantastic for the environment. I mean, there are so many good news pieces about this change.
MIKE
And I have some good news to share as well. Actually, we’re going to take a couple of moments break to talk about our wonderful podcast partners. We’re going to come back in a couple of moments because now that we understand what the legislation is, we’re going to talk a little about some of the moving pieces in that legislation, how we can embrace some of the opportunities as well as some of the challenges that might come up as well. So, stick around. We’ll be back in a couple of minutes and I’m going to keep this conversation going.
JENNIFER-LEE
Measure Twice, Cut Once is grateful to our podcast partners, FortisBC, BC Housing and Trail Appliances. Support from our partners helps us share expert knowledge and resources with families looking to build, design and renovate the home right for you. Trail Appliances makes everyday life better with the best selection in Western Canada, hassle-free delivery and a price match guarantee. You’ll always get the best deal. At Trail Appliances, you’ll love buying an appliance as much as you’ll love using it. Affordable, accessible, quality housing is a top-of-mind issue for many British Columbians. For BC Housing, creating access to housing solutions that meets everyone’s needs is a guiding principle. BC Housing is working with governments, non-profits, and residential construction industry members to create practical solutions to BC’s housing challenges. To learn more about BC housing initiatives, programs and services, go to www.bchousing.org . And we all need reliable and efficient equipment for better comfort, health and safety for our homes. Whether you want to adopt some energy saving habits or take on a major energy efficiency upgrade, FortisBC can help you save energy. Be sure to visit www.FortisBC.com , where you can also find amazing tips on low and no cost ways to save energy. Plus, great information on what FortisBC is doing on low-carbon energy with solutions such as renewable natural gas. Competition alert. Listen and like this episode for your chance to win a Napoleon Prestige P500 stainless steel natural gas barbecue valued at $1,600 compliments of our podcast partner. FortisBC details at www.HAVAN.ca/measuretwicecutonce. Now let’s get back to our guests.
MIKE
All right. Welcome back. We talked about some of the things the legislation is going to allow us to do. I think it’s important to talk about some of the challenges that we have to overcome. We talked earlier; you’ve done a bunch of first things. Well, there’s a bunch of things we have to figure out right now and scale in order for this to become something more conventional and mainstream. So, can you talk to us a little about the differences in managing infrastructure in a multi-density development versus say a single-family development? Like what comes to mind for me is like something really, really simple. Like my house has two parking spots in the driveway. Well, if I’ve got four units, technically I have to have a parking spot for every unit. So that changes even something as simple as my driveway and there’s this ratcheting effect. So, can we talk about some of the different moving pieces that have to be figured out for this to become scalable?
LAUREL
Yeah, absolutely. You’re exactly right. And I mean, first and foremost, I mean, it’s it’s worth noting that right now it’s murky. So, there is this provincial regulation out, you know, the province has said to all municipalities, you know, get this sorted out. There’s a deadline of June 30th for municipalities to implement something. And different municipalities are ahead of others. And so, the answer to sort of that question is a little bit, it depends. It depends what city you’re in, it depends what size your lot is in, it depends what utilities you need, et cetera, et cetera. But there’s some real basic gaps in rolling this out from an infrastructural perspective for sure. And, you know, one thing that I can think of, like, when it comes to wires and pipes, right? When we’re just thinking about electricity and getting electricity to all of these homes, you mentioned parking. And when it comes to water supply, all of these things, how are we going to do that when we have potentially over 130,000 new small-scale multi-unit homes over the next decade? So, there’s really this, there’s a missing middle. That’s a term that people are getting more and more used to, but there’s also a missing middle when it comes to how to execute. And it’s going to take everybody and a lot of people that are much smarter and more specialized in all these areas than I am in terms of gaps in financial support and so forth. But from a basic perspective, if you have more than, what we can do is we can look to a couple of the municipalities that are Leading the way, in particular, Vancouver, who should really be commended because they have released in the fall of last year, 2023, they’ve released their consolidated zoning for single family homes, which allows multiplexes. And we’re starting to see how some of this stuff is going to translate to your point. So, from their perspective, if you have more than three dwellings, you’ve got to consider a PMT, which is a pad mounted transformer, potentially. But it also is, it depends. And that’s where it kind of gets murky because it’s all very situational and it’s all very dependent on what is already set up in terms of pipes and wires and that infrastructure on that block to begin with.
JENNIFER-LEE
And like you say, you need to make sure you have enough electricity because something that comes to mind that a lot of people aren’t talking about is, yeah, they’re like, oh, cars, people have less cars, but. That’s not the case. A lot more people, especially in the suburbs, are going to electric cars. Yes. So, if you have four units and everyone has an electric car, how are they charging? Are they going to be able to, like, be able to withstand four cars? All that stuff.
LAUREL
Exactly. And every new home built today, it has provisions for that, you know, which which is great, which is fantastic. But it does present, yeah, many gaps. You know, Small Housing BC and other people are working on recommendations on the neighborhood level. to consider like cost sharing for upgrades that service multiple properties or looking at like what’s possible from private versus public land. But it ties into everything, stormwater management, drainage, power supply, water supply, like all of these things have their own sort of set of potential gaps and problems. And navigating it, even jurisdiction to jurisdiction could look quite different. And this summer is when we’re going to really start to see what municipalities come forward with.
MIKE
Question for you, we talked about power as an example. we know that we’re starting to see a better incantation of solar power, although it’s still not as attainable as we’d like it to be, but we also are seeing new technology like smart panels and stuff like that. How long do you think it’s gonna take for some of this new and emerging technology to help level a playing field? So, some of these things you talked about, like having to put a transformer on a pad, sort of become history lessons. Like how far are we away from that fully formed future?
LAUREL
Fantastic question, because we, exactly to your point. Smart panels, which help you distribute power to the places that you need them when you need them, along with EV vehicles, as you pointed out. All of these things are here and present and now. We’re also pre-piping every home for future solar, even if you’re not deciding to consider solar now. So, I mean, Really, it’s a big question mark. I think every single project of ours at the moment has some conversation around solar, has some conversation around efficiency when it comes to using that. We have one client who wants to overproduce on solar energy and give back. How do we do that? Because BC Hydro is going to cap it at a certain point. So, there are lots of questions and sorry, I’m coming up with more questions than answers, aren’t I?
JENNIFER-LEE
Oh, this is a great discussion, but this is the truthful discussion and your hands on your husband’s builder. You’re the designer. It’s really important to understand this stuff. A lot of times people don’t take the time to sit back and it’s like it’s great to have all these things to help us with housing, but we really need to be realistic and see how it all. Yeah. Like what are the steps? And we don’t know because we haven’t done this before. And to your point, many municipalities have had so many different rules for so long. Like, I don’t think, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think in New Westminster, yes, you’re allowed duplexes, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a laneway while growing up, unless they’re maybe new in the last five to 10 years, but growing up, definitely no laneways. For you, Mike, you weren’t allowed duplexes in White Rock up until now, or you still aren’t.
MIKE
Yeah, so I fell in South Surrey. We are not allowed to build duplexes on less than 10,000 square feet. We have a 7,000 square foot lot. In Vancouver, you could put a 25-storey building up on that, essentially. I mean, I’m being a little sarcastic here, but why can’t we? Why do we have to have so much green space when we have an acute housing shortage?
JENNIFER-LEE
Right. So, it’s changing all these rules, too, before we get, like, to putting all these places and kind of making everyone.
MIKE
And it’s interesting because we’re figuring it out as we go. Like you were just talking about, these are the conversations like when we all get together for events and just to talk as professionals, we have these conversations because we’re trying to figure it out as we go.
LAUREL
That’s right.
MIKE
There’s a lot of unknowns.
LAUREL
And learn from each other.
MIKE
But there are some knowns as well. And I want to focus a little bit on those. And one of the things I think we need to talk about that we haven’t talked about yet is this is great legislation because it’s going to allow someone like me to be a small part of fixing our housing crisis, but it’s not the same. I’m not going to be building just a bigger version of the house I was going to be building to build a duplex. So, there’s going to be some cost differences and there’s going to be some infrastructure costs I’m going to have to absorb versus just tearing my house down and building a new or more energy efficient house. Can you talk a little about those things so we have a good sense realistically when we move into this process what we can expect? as, uh, as we begin is we don’t want to have sticker shock.
LAUREL
Yes, I mean, I hate being the bearer of bad news, but there’s, there’s most likely going to be, you know, unknowns and murkiness and maybe even some sticker shock in that path. Just being forward about it. It’s no different than when laneways were first coming out. And we were trying to navigate, you know, power in the back of properties and how is this going to run? It gets sort out, but especially for the the first year, the first two years, what have you. And until we see some of this, there’s going to be a lot of unknowns to figure out. But you talk about knowns, what do we know? There are some municipalities that have been signaling the way and have been doing great. And there’s also cities around the world that have been undertaking this, Auckland, New Zealand, and other ones that we can learn from. New West, you mentioned New West.
JENNIFER-LEE
for 20 years.
LAUREL
It’s like near and dear to my heart. And I have to say, they are one of the municipalities that is really ahead of this sea change. We have been having fantastic success there. We’ve got a few projects there at the moment. And when it comes to Queen’s Park, navigating heritage and all that kind of stuff. There are people that are in these municipalities that have been setting up the mechanisms and setting up the standards and the path forward. So, it’s all about, it’s an iterative process, right? And I think like everybody wants to know what are the knowns, what’s the bottom line, what is it going to cost and how long is it going to take me? And a lot of that we just aren’t going to know off the bat. So, it’s all about partnering with people that you can navigate that path with, not just at the best of times, but when things are challenging and when things get unknown, having professionals there to help you guide through that process.
JENNIFER-LEE
Anything big unknown too, it’s not just cost and stuff. For me, I want this to be a positive thing and I’ve got all that. I’m positive about it, but I’m also concerned about doing this. It’s like, because we always have people that get around the system and it’s like, is this just going to turn out to be like, oh, I know we’re going to have legislation in place, but it’s like, are people going to start like renting these things out for a lot of money and are we going to be back where we are? And that’s my concern, right? Okay.
LAUREL
I love that you brought that up because it’s, it goes back a little bit to sort of the good news of this, which is there are real, there, there are, potentially real ownership opportunities that are coming out of this that, you know, the starter homes that are missing and sort of like, you know, taking it. It’s really that missing middle again, not just from a ownership perspective, but from a how to execute and infrastructurally like we there’s a chance for this to come out of just that speculative large builder side of things and have middle builders that are navigating this along the way and helping real families that are the ones that are building wealth, building equity, even if it’s with others, even if it’s a couple of generations coming together to do this. they can take their own lot and turn it into something that is really empowering.
JENNIFER-LEE
Or friends, like literally, that’s how our duplex started. So, I told my dad, he’s a changemaker, but this is like many years ago. Him and his friend couldn’t afford a piece of property, so they bought a piece of property in New Westminster that they were able to put a duplex on. And that’s how they got into the housing market. Fantastic.
MIKE
Yeah, there’s all sorts of creative ways around that. Now, I do want to go back and talk a little bit more about cost, because I think we have to sort of draw out what some of those differences are. First of all, I was really hoping that what you were going to say was after you build three units, the fourth is free. Sounds like that’s not the case.
JENNIFER-LEE
No, that’s a unit for me, Mike.
LAUREL
It’s Jen’s unit for free. You’re giving us marketing ideas.
MIKE
Tune in next season when we talk about how to market your project. I’m looking at a higher cost, and there’s a bunch of reasons for that. I have to have fire barriers. I have to make sure that when my neighbor down below is cooking cabbage on Sunday, I don’t necessarily want to smell it up.
JENNIFER-LEE
I’m not going to be cooking cabbage, just so you know.
MIKE
Yes, you are. You already said you were going to. Sunday is cabbage cooking day. There’s sprinklers. There’re all sorts of things in there. So, am I looking at, say, per square foot versus a single-family home? Am I looking at two times the cost, four times the cost, 10 times the cost? Because I think as we start to quantify it, some of these other pieces will fall into place.
LAUREL
That, okay, great bringing it back down to what it really is. And although we can’t- We have to afford it before we go ahead with it, right?
MIKE
Exactly. All of us are in that same boat. We have to know our numbers before we make our next move.
LAUREL
And here’s the thing, ourselves as a design build firm, this is no more expensive to build than what we’re building right now. So, in terms of per square foot, we’re still just simply subject to you know, the real hard costs of lumber and drywall and the hard costs of construction and whatever inflation is out there. But when we’re building these, we’re already building homes that convert a single-family home to, say, a single family with secondary suite, we’re lifting it up shifting it over. We’re already versed in this, so the hurdles are not with, say, the expertise on the builder’s side or the expense thereof. When we build this home, the cost per square foot is going to be no different than what we’re doing Previously, in fact, there are things that are going to be sharper. There’s economy of scale for sure. So, building four kitchens versus one, well, that’s going to be, you know, less per lineal foot of kitchen when you’re building four of them, say for instance.
MIKE
But there’ll be other things though, like we were talking about cisterns, we were talking about like transformer mounted on a pad, right?
LAUREL
Exactly. Those are the unknowns because it depends on what is the power requirements for your whole block.
JENNIFER-LEE
But does it get a little bit more expensive because like you said, you’re building four kitchens, but then you’re putting more appliances in and then you’re putting more toilets in and you’re putting more other fixtures in.
LAUREL
For sure. I just mean on a per square foot.
JENNIFER-LEE
No add-ons though. No toilets. That’s why Mike has a porta potty outside.
MIKE
Absolutely. Saved a fortune.
LAUREL
Where it’s going to be more expensive is in the soft costs. So, in the planning. you want to plan, you want to design, you want to be thoughtful about all of that. And those soft costs are going to be more because there’s more to think about, there’s more to consider, there’s the creature comforts of all of these people living in close quarters and the question of livability to your point about the cabbage and so forth. But when it comes to the construction costs, us putting up you know, walls, oscillation. We’ve already navigated so much of that in terms of, you know, higher performing homes and that sort of stuff. The cost per square foot to build this, as long as we’re, you know, talking about three, four dwellings, what have you, the cost per square foot is not going to change, but the infrastructural side is going to change. And then the sheer bottom number in terms of you add that up quantity of appliances and all the rest of it. Yes, that’s bigger and that’s where that gap in financing really needs to close. What I would love to see, and I don’t know the answer to this, but I would love to see that homeowners could qualify on more than just their qualifying income like that more than just their qualifying income would be considered that potential renters and or sales and that kind of stuff. So, it’s like, again, it’s that sort of missing middle of like, how do you how do you finance this project? Not just from a developer perspective, where it’s a pure business case that needs a big bottom ROI return on investment. But rather, it’s a family that’s navigating this and maybe they’ve got qualifying income, but they also have a business case of their own. And there hopefully are solutions to help navigate that.
JENNIFER-LEE
But also, you need a good designer to like going back to Mike’s point of cabbage smell, but I would be a good tenant just letting you know. It’s also making sure that you are designing the place so four different dwellings can be there. So it’s really about great design because you want to be able to position it that you know people aren’t hearing the other person’s like toilet go off or like what else is going on in the home or like going where the units go in and that they all have enough space and like that’s why it comes out to you guys
LAUREL
Well said. And it’s even a little, it’s even more basic than that. It’s creature comforts. We all need to, just as human beings, we need to gather and commune with one another, but we also need to retreat. You may, you know, whether it’s an outdoor room or an escape room or whatever it is.
JENNIFER-LEE
To get rid of his children.
LAUREL
It doesn’t matter, you know, who you are. We all need to be able to step away, retreat and restore ourselves as well and rest. And so, you’re absolutely right. It’s about design. It’s about being realistic about things. How can we coexist and still enjoy each other and not, you know, tear each other’s heads off. A spa room for your wife. And there’s lots of design tools we can do to sort of think about that. From my perspective, it doesn’t have to be expensive or big to be, say, beautiful or functional and friendly to us as human beings. You can have a beautiful path to a beautiful place, and it can be tiny and considered, or it can be you know, a little bit bigger. And it doesn’t, it doesn’t, it’s not about size or expense. It’s about thoughtfulness. And if you’ve got thoughtful solutions, and if you’re taking care of your creature comforts, you’re going to be, you’re going to love it.
JENNIFER-LEE
Well said. You are hired to design Mike’s place. Oh, excellent.
MIKE
Perfect. Well, we’re going to have to wrap up shortly and it’s a shame because this has been a really good conversation and I have no doubt that we could probably go on for another two or three hours, but the rest of the team here is going to start throwing stuff at me if I go on for too long. But what you’ve given us has been a phenomenal overview of the process that goes in to not only figuring out these particular buildings, but a lot of the things that we take for granted now. And so much good information. You know, we talked about some of the legislation changes and what that would facilitate. I’m very glad you talked about the shift in how we think about designing for one of these units versus a regular unit, even the economy of scale as well. So, a lot of really, really great information here. And we really, really appreciate you taking the time to break all of this stuff down for us.
JENNIFER-LEE
Yeah, thank you so much. I know you already gave us a lot of stuff, but can you give us one more tip before you leave? Just one more piece of wisdom for the consumer out there, maybe thinking of getting a multiplex designed by yourself. What would you like them to think about?
LAUREL
I would say start early. Seek out professionals that are up to date with what’s at the latest. And be kind to yourself. Know that it’s an iterative process. Know that it’s going to take some time. And pick people that you want to work with, not just at the best of times, but when things get challenging. Because it’s not about if it’s going to get challenging, it’s about when. And you want people at your side that are going to be professional and break things down and tell you about your choices along the way.
MIKE
That’s great advice and I think that’s something anyone looking at one of these projects really has to take a step back and think about as well. Before we get going, there’s one more thing we want to talk about very quickly and that is once you’ve gone through this process, worked with a great team, got your place built, you’re ready to move in. You go, hey man, I’d like to have some people over, maybe have a barbecue. I don’t have a barbecue. Well, we’re going to fix that because you’ve already listened to this episode. Thank you for your support. Like this episode, tell your family, tell your friends, and you have a chance to win a Napoleon Prestige P500 stainless steel, natural gas barbecue valued at $1,600. Compliments of our podcast partners at FortisBC. Details are available at www.HAVAN.ca slash measure twice, cut once.
JENNIFER-LEE
And for notes and links to everything mentioned on today’s episode, including resources shared by Laurel, go to www.HAVAN.ca/measuretwicecutonce . Thank you to Trail Appliances, FortisBC, BC Housing, Rami Films, Jpod Creations and AI Technology and Design. It takes a team to build a home and it takes a team to build a podcast. Thank you so much for joining us and see you next week. Next week, we’re going to talk with a BC Housing Sara Goldvine, who will be chatting about the new secondary suite incentive program. Can’t wait.
MIKE
It’s going to be a good one.
