SEEING DOUBLE

Doubling down on a housing type not readily allowed in all Metro Vancouver municipalities has Kiff Mowat of Davenport Homes and his brother Cam seeing double. These brothers know first-hand how a duplex can provide an affordable approach to living in a ground-oriented home. Listen in as Jennifer-Lee and Mike from Measure Twice, Cut Once learn about the brothers’ journey from living in condos, to building a duplex with suites, to house four families.

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Kiff Mowat is the owner and Principal of Davenport Homes. He discovered his passion for construction early on, and has never looked back! He is a graduate of BCIT, has achieved his Red Seal Certification and worked in the construction industry for many years. Born and raised on the North Shore, Kiff was an ardent hockey player and credits his time playing on various teams as the perfect way to learn the importance of relationships both in sports and in business! He values continued learning for both himself and his team. His trades are considered partners in the business and very important to the overall success.

Cameron Mowat, Director, Canadian Commercial Banking at BMO Financial Group, Kiff’s brother, and owner of the other duplex.

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Jennifer-Lee:

Welcome to Measure twice, Cut Once, the podcast from HAVAN, the Homebuilders association Vancouver.

Mike:

From Codes to kitchens,

Jennifer-Lee:

Safety, to sundecks,

Mike:

we’ll take you behind the walls and all things, home building design and renovation,

Jennifer-Lee:

and give you the ins and outs from the experts.

Mike:

to help you build a renovate the right home for you.

Jennifer-Lee:

in plain language,

Mike:

focused on home, building design and renovation.

Jennifer-Lee:

I’m Jennifer Lee Johnson.

Mike:

And I’m Mike Freedman. Now that you’re here, why not hit subscribe? And you’ll never miss another episode.

Jennifer-Lee:

Hey Mike, how’s it going?

Mike:

Absolutely phenomenal. I’ve been thinking about the guests we’ve had in the studio and the stories we’ve told this season, home renovations, passive homes, adaptive living, small housing solutions. Everyone’s stories are just so interesting.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yes. I think what is so exciting about season two is the fact that we have two guests in the studio, including homeowners to get a real perspective on the home building or renovation project.

Speaker 2:

This is going to be a good one. And today we have double the fun with Kiff Mowat of Davenport Homes and his brother Cam who ironically, also shares the same last name. Welcome guys.

Cam:

Thank you.

Kiff:

Thanks guys, good to be here.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yeah thanks for coming in. I’m really interested to hear about your journey with the duplex project. I grew up in a duplex. I don’t think that duplexes get the spotlight that they really should, but before we dig into duplexes, I want to hear about you and your journey and how you guys got here today because you both have very different careers. So tell us a little bit about each other, or yourselves.

Kiff:

Yeah, I would say that’s true. We, uh, I guess they say opposites attract. My brother cam is heavily into the finance sector and obviously I’m the one handling things out in the field, the building, the homes. On the duplex front, it was really born out of more of a necessity than a desire. Cam and I were both starting families and we were both in apartment buildings trying to figure out how to make that next step, naturally looking at townhomes. But we really knew that we wanted to be close to one another and we wanted our families to have that opportunity to kind of grow together. And so I think it was Cam who one day had suggested the idea of a duplex and it kind of was born there and kind of just got the wheels turning there.

Cam:

I think you’re right that the spotlight isn’t on duplexes so much. All the metrics you see are apartments, townhomes, and houses. And there’s no middle ground between the townhouse and the house. And for us townhouses were a good option, but a bit small still. We wanted a yard and single family homes are out of reach. So we came across a nice lot that was zoned duplex. And, the wheels started turning from there.

Jennifer-Lee:

I love that because that’s how my dad got his first property, which is a duplex because. He doesn’t have a brother, but he teamed up with his friend as they could not afford in Vancouver way back in the day. And they could not afford a single family home. So they bought the piece of land in New Westminster and they built the duplex. And I honestly think it’s a great. I didn’t notice as a kid that it’s any different. Growing up I thought I lived in a single family.

Kiff:

Yeah. I mean, again, why we did it as you get the yard. So let’s look at the differences between a townhouse and a duplex. You know you’re getting a significant yard. And I think one of the things that’s important that Cam and I didn’t touch on earlier was the metrics of the duplex. You know, not only is it a bigger space, a more enjoyable space, and it feels possibly more like a single-family home, but you got to suite. So we had the revenue generating suite, which really helps the affordability of it too. And so when you look at a townhome, it’s very rare to find a town home with an income generator. So the metrics of it really made sense for us. And I think the suite was, was a huge part of why we were able to do that.

Jennifer-Lee:

And is there two suites or is there just one suite generating income for both of you guys?

Kiff:

There is two suites. So, each duplex has its own suite, which will generate income. We’ve made a strategic move. So when our families do grow and expand, we can actually pull those suites out and recover the spaces for ourselves.

Cam:

And actually just to further fit both of our needs, my brother and his family, they have a two bedroom suite in their basement and we have a one bedroom suite in our basement and we kept what is his second bedroom as a rec room for us in the basement. So we were really able to customize it that way.

Mike:

I have a question because you are sharing a property and sharing walls. You guys are brothers, so it’s a little bit different, but for someone contemplating a duplex, are there strata issues for that for the duplex versus for a single home?

Cam:

So there’s different ways you can do it and you can actually choose what you want to do. We ended up stratifying ours, which allowed us to more easily cover common property. You know, mostly the roof, the roof on the garage, the fence going down the property line, but there are other options that you can completely separate them. To be honest, I didn’t look that deeply into them because we knew we wanted to stratify, but there are definitely different options in that regard.

Jennifer-Lee:

Are any of you worried that one day one of you are going to sell and then you might be stuck with a neighbor that you maybe don’t enjoy.

Kiff:

It doesn’t get any worse than it is now. No, um, we’ve definitely talked about that. You know, our situation – everyone’s situation is unique, and Cam and I actually enjoyed the process. The process worked really well for us and it actually works so well that, to answer your question, we’re actually going to be doing this process again together. So we’ve avoided that awkward one person moving.

Jennifer-Lee:

And where do you start with that with your brother being like, okay, we want to do this. Our families are growing. We need a place to put them, but like really? Where does it start? Like, what is step one and how do you decide, okay, duplex is going to be our need and this is where we’re moving with it.

Kiff:

Yeah. Well I think everything starts with, you know, with budgets and money and maybe Cam can maybe explain how, uh, how that came to be from a financial side of things.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yeah. Cam could you tell us a little bit about your background? We didn’t touch upon what, what do you do?

Cam:

Oh, I’m in commercial finance, so have been for about 12 years now. So I work with companies who need money and I give them the money.

Kiff:

Hello.

Cam:

So the duplex came about, as I mentioned, we needed it. We needed the space. I was in a one bed, one in den condo with my wife and our little baby and a dog and it just wasn’t working. That was downtown. We wanted to go back to North Van that’s where both my brother and I grew up. We were very happy in North Van, love North Van. And just as a coincidence, I guess the timing was good. They had just rezoned a whole section of the town, the Moodyville area and actually designated a number of lots duplex. So it actually made it very easy for just to go buy an already zoned duplex lot and build that product on it. We didn’t have to take it through any sort of rezoning process. So it was quite quick. Well I say quick, it wasn’t quick, but, it was relatively easy because it was already zoned duplex. And when we stumbled across that rezoning from the city is when we really started to get to thinking that this, yes, we can do this.

Kiff:

Hey Cam, just remind me how, because I know when we started this process, I was looking independently and you were looking independently and we were both kinda hitting brick walls with getting into single-family homes. What was the turning point that the banks saw us in a different light? Was it that we had four incomes on title? Like how did we buy this thing?

Cam:

Yeah. So the, the land was, you know, we, when we set out, we decided that we couldn’t buy a piece of land by ourselves, but the bank actually when we submitted our financing application, they took into consideration all four of our incomes, combined us into one and then got the construction mortgage based on that.

Cam:

Now we’re in a pretty unique situation where we could do that because we’re family and we were comfortable with that, but it really helped us get into a project that I definitely couldn’t get into by myself. And just my side of the family.

Mike:

What a great way to segue into the project itself. Let’s talk a little about this project, the what and the why. And I think let’s rewind a little bit and talk about what was there before you guys started in the project. It had already been rezoned. What was on the property then? And what did you turn it into?

Cam:

Well, I guess I’ll talk about what was on the property then. It was this really – I’d call it cute. I don’t know if I’d be able to live in it, but it was quite an old two bedroom, one bathroom house, overgrown gardens. And so it, it just, wasn’t all that attractive, but the lot was good and it’s exactly what we were looking for. So we luckily didn’t have to pay much attention to the existing structure on the land.

Kiff:

Yeah. And I mean, for lack of better term, that was a two bedroom war-time cottage, you know, no foundations. And so it wasn’t a great benefit to the community. It wasn’t housing any additional families, it wasn’t providing any visual interest to the community. And so we took it upon ourselves to create a visually interesting duplex that would not only add elevated design to the neighborhood, but it would also provide opportunity for four families instead of one to live two blocks away from the new, Moodyville Park. So I think that’s ultimately what the direction is moving from municipalities and stuff like that. You have a hub on a park and transit, let’s talk duplex. I think it just makes sense.

Jennifer-Lee:

And touching on that because like you said, this particular area of North Van was over the zone for duplexes. There’s a lot of municipalities that don’t allow them yet, or it’s a lot harder to get a duplex and you have to go through a lot of red tape. I know for when my family did a long time ago, we were in Queens Park and there weren’t a whole bunch of duplexes and it took my dad quite a few tries going to city hall and eventually accomplished it. So for people wanting to get a duplex, what is your best game plan for them? Like, should they check with different municipalities that they’re interested in purchasing land in? Like what’s the game plan for people who want to build a duplex?

Kiff:

Yeah. Like I think first and foremost it’s always going to be the path of least resistance is always going to be finding something that is zoned appropriately. It’s typically an uphill battle trying to prove to municipality that, you know, you want to change the form of housing that they’ve already identified as appropriate on that street or that neighborhood. And so I think just again, identifying those areas that are permissive of duplexes to start is going to be a huge benefit to anyone that’s looking. Unfortunately it is limited, but you can find them if you’re on the look. So

Mike:

I think that underscores the value of working with a quality builder who is local. And number one knows what you can do. And number two knows how to get it done. I know where I’m at South Surrey, no matter how much I want, I can’t build a duplex. So I can’t work with you on a project like that, but a local builder will be able to steer me in the right direction. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the design of this home, some of the features of this home and anything special considered that, you know, was maybe a little bit unique to this particular home.

Kiff:

Well, I can speak from a construction standpoint. So first of all, this was built in the City of North Vancouver and, the City of North Vancouver is a mandated Step Three at the time now, and the time of the build. So, we pushed it to Step Three.

Mike:

Can you walk us through The Step Code?

Cam:

Yeah, that’s a fantastic question. We get asked that I would say every single time we’re approached by a client, we’re asked about the Step Code. The Step Code was enacted – ooh now you’re testing me – two or three years ago. It depends on the municipality still coming to light today in certain municipalities. But the goal of the Step Code was two things. Number one was to align this industry better with what’s going on in the world. We’re trying to preserve energy. We’re trying to be green, we’re trying to be efficient. And so that was lacking in our industry. And I think that was a really, really big step forward for us, as well as the learning curve, but, the guys who are keen on it have now got very good control of it and, uh, and are well on our way. So starting at the lowest step being step one is going to be kind of the least energy efficient home that you can put up today. It might resemble a home of, of, of years past, but soon enough that step one home will not be any longer to be built and they will be moving up the steps. So starting at step one is kind of your, you know, 2010 sort of building code home. And then, you know, you, if you want to fast forward all up to step five, you’re starting to talk about you’re getting into your net zeros and your passives, which is basically meaning that home on an annual basis is generating as much energy as it’s using, which, um, which is quite significant. So again, we’re, we’re in step three, we’re kind of right in the middle as a company, Davenport is heavily invested in moving up the step code. You know, everyone’s going to be at step five soon enough, but I think the sooner that these companies can get there, the better off we’ll be.

Mike:

I really liked this conversation about Step Code. It really represents the future of our industry. We know what it is now. Let’s talk about the benefits. What are some of the benefits Kiff of living in a step code three or step code five home?

Kiff:

I think this played into big decision of Cameron and mines to do this duplex with the kids and everyone being health-conscious and understanding what healthy living means now and what an HRV system is. These are all part of this Step Code process. A big one is the HRV system. Just a quick sort of high level. The HRV system is bringing in fresh air into your home at the temperature that you ask it to. So it’s the same temperatures at thermostat, and it’s removing all the old air from your home. So we don’t know what’s happening as humans, but we’ve can feel comfortable. The airtightness of these homes in these Step Codes is not allowing sort of any heat leakage. And so you’re not left with cold spots in the house. I know we all sat by our window as a kid and felt that cold draft. We don’t experience that anymore. And that’s part of the reason that Cam and I did this. Is Step Three metrics are making these homes so comfortable and so sort of quiet and comfortable to live in that really was a no brainer versus an older home for the same value. One really interesting thing that Cam and I were quite keen on both from a carrying cost perspective and getting out of our apartment perspective was timelines. And we explored a prefabricated system that was actually brought in and we actually prefabricated the house and assembled it on site. So what we were left with was probably a savings of two months on our construction schedule, as well as super high energy efficiency home due to that prefabrication process. It’s a learning curve for sure, but it’s something that we would do again, do the benefits of the timeline.

Cam:

When he first said, click together, pre-construction build it and bring it out. I thought we’d have a finished house. It was still made of wood. And I could see the wood and it was bare walls.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yeah. We were talking to Steve Kemp about prefabricated panels in another episode, but can you guys just tell us a little bit about it just for the listener, if they’re not caught up to speed on it?

Kiff:

Absolutely. And actually, oddly enough, Steve Kemp was the provider of our panels. So what Steve was doing, he was taking, you know, on a high level, he was taking our building plans. He was taking our engineered drawings and he was essentially creating walls inside a factory. It just means that it’s a factory controlled environment. You’re not dealing with moisture. All your walls are laid at a table at waist height. So they’re typically built faster. There’s machinery in that sort of arena. So they could be moving walls around, stacking them on a truck and getting them out the door. So I guess in comparison to a traditionally framed house Steve’s panels, like I said, saved us a couple of months. But the interesting part is they came with the building paper attached. They came with insulation on the exterior and all we were left to do was spray foam the inside of the home to get it airtight.

Jennifer-Lee:

Now I understand Cam why you thought the house is being built in just a few weeks, these fancy panels.

Cam:

That’s what I thought I was being promised. Unfortunately, not.

Mike:

It comes in an Ikea box, just follow the directions. And three days later you have a house.

Kiff:

So we’re working on client expectations.

Jennifer-Lee:

Well, I was just thinking of that while you guys were talking was the fact that you’re from the finance world. So your brother who has all this knowledge and is good at what he does, how was it to go through this building process? Do you just kind of be like, okay, you take all of it, you deal with it. And you tell me when it’s finished and I’ll move in.

Cam:

Yeah. So I kind of closed my eyes to that side of things. I had someone working that I could trust. So that, that was really nice. And I just signed the checks. It actually worked out quite well. Because I didn’t really have to worry about that. I didn’t have to keep an eye on my contractor, I guess I did.

Kiff:

Should have.

Cam:

But it was just a really easy harmonious relationship between the two of us, because we both did what we were good at and stayed out of each other’s way.

Jennifer-Lee:

Were there any stories, like any drama because you guys are both brothers.

Kiff:

On air?

Jennifer-Lee:

Give us a good story that you can share with people.

Cam:

Yeah. Well, there were a few arguments, you know, we did have to decide which side we each lived in. I didn’t realize that everyone wanted to be south west facing. So I wound up in the east side. And so that was a fight after the fact, because I don’t know, I didn’t tell me the west-facing unit was better, but that was about it. There wasn’t much that came up that caused any brotherly spats, nothing that I can think of any.

Jennifer-Lee:

I don’t know, Kiff looks like he’s working on something.

Kiff:

Yeah, no, I obviously the brotherly aspect helps a lot and I think there was colorful conversations about budgets, but nothing that jumps out as anything that’s worth mentioning. Yeah, it really was a good process at the end of the day.

Jennifer-Lee:

So, living there is the duplex soundproof enough. Can you hear each other?

Kiff:

That’s one thing we focused on eh Cam?

Cam:

Yup.

Kiff:

That was a hold no punches a budget line. Cause, we understand that, you know, getting a bit more serious, we understand that it has to work, you know, the day you move in, if you drop some cutlery and your neighbors started hearing that, that’s not going to work. So we took a very holistic approach. We started from zero and got some good advice on soundproofing and we’re very, very successful in that sense.

Jennifer-Lee:

Or you bring a new baby home and they cry all the time.

Kiff:

I can hear cam weeping sometimes. Yeah. We both have new babies. We both have rescue dogs, so they bark and, we both have tenants. So I think it’s safe to say we’ve been successful with no side to side complaints or tenants complaining.

Cam:

Yeah. It’s, it’s been really good that way.

Mike:

It seems like a quiet uneventful place.

Kiff:

Oh, it’s boring. It’s boring. Nothing fun happens.

Jennifer-Lee:

Kiff and Cam I’m loving this discussion and I want to dig into what it’s like for two brothers and their families to be living together in the duplex. I know we touched a little bit on it, but first we need to take a quick break to thank our podcast sponsors. So hang in and we’ll be back in 30 seconds.

Mike:

Measure Twice, Cut Once is grateful for the support from our podcast partners like BC Housing, BC Hydro, and FortisBC. Their support helps us share expert knowledge and resources like you’re hearing today from Kiff and Cam to help build and design the right home for you.

Jennifer-Lee:

And speaking of resources, the BC Energy Step Code program is a provincial standard that is moving the entire home building industry forward to building homes for better energy efficiency standards, which means better comfort, health, and safety. Be sure to check out www.betterhomes.bc.ca, where you will find a variety of rebates for construction materials, home, energy evaluations, plus mortgage and tax refunds.

Mike:

There are also rebates for renovations to. Just click on the rebate tool button on the homepage of www.betterhomes.bc.ca to find cost-saving resources for your next project, or talk with your licensed builder or professional contractor. They’ll help guide you. Now let’s get back to Kiff and Cam. I don’t care whether you’re married couple, brothers or just a couple of people entering into a project, super clear communication solves so many problems.

Cam:

Absolutely. And you know, even before this project, my brother and I spoke regularly almost every day, so that just didn’t have to change for us. We just kept that schedule going. Our wives are quite good friends, so it made it just, everything was on the table from day one. So it was, it was quite good.

Jennifer-Lee:

I want to know, are your homes exactly identical inside? Are they the same design aesthetic, same appliances or, or does one brother like something better than the other brother is one brother more cheap than the other brother giving me all the answers?

Mike:

So, I don’t think people like to be called cheap

New Speaker:

Sorry, correct., frugal

Mike:

The correct term now in our modern era is financial relinquishment discipline.

Cam:

And as the banker here, I wear that badge with pride. I am the frugal one, but it’s actually amazing because we had agreed that we would keep both sides as much the same as possible just to save on costs. The interior designers had to flip the plans to make the other side. So they are almost identical in terms of where the kitchen island is, where the cabinets are, where the fridge is, all the bathrooms, bedrooms, the exact same layout, but they have a different colour scheme. And it’s amazing how different the units look just because they have a different colour scheme and lighting choices and items like that. But they feel like two different places.

Mike:

Did you guys work with a designer?

Cam:

We did.

Kiff:

Yeah. And I think that’s a, that’s a good point that you touched on cam, uh, like you were talking about costs and duplexes and it’s, it’s important to be aware of, of what you’re doing. If you go in blind and you say to your designer, okay, do Cam’s house and then do my house inherently. You’re going to pay twice. And one of the challenges with duplexes is not paying twice and getting all that work done one time. And then just multiplying to the second unit is how we got great economies. So anyone who’s sort of diving into this world, I would, I would always recommend that they’re sort of paying attention to keeping things equal on a base level. And then just changing your, your, your finishings to kind of call it your own.

Jennifer-Lee:

Are the finishings the same or did one brother go a little bit fancier?

Kiff:

Mine turned out nicer, I don’t know about fancier, but mine turned out a lot nicer.

Cam:

In terms have the same appliance packages. So they’re identical, our lighting choices are different. You know, the costs would differ a bit there, but we had an agreement that again, at the end of the day, we’re going to try to wind up to as close as 50 50 on this as possible in terms of costs. So where he spent more on his lighting, we spent a bit more on our flooring and we really worked to keep that equilibrium as we worked through the project, it wasn’t easy, but we wound up actually pretty darn close to 50 50 on the costs.

Jennifer-Lee:

Oh, that’s crazy. And what’s so important about flooring for you. And what’s so important about your lighting for you.

Kiff:

Don’t forget. He’s on the east side. So he needed about four times as many lights as I did on the west. So no, yeah, I think Cam’s right. Again. I mentioned paying the designer twice, but you could do that in all the facets of this build. So you want to try and multiply as much as possible.

Jennifer-Lee:

I just think it’s fascinating because I never thought about that when it comes down to costs, is the fact that do they have to be identical and do you want to keep the budget as close to 50 50? Because like, you really could do it the way that one brother spent way more. If he wanted too.

Kiff:

I’m doing one for a client right now. And it’s started out like two friends and it started out this way and it’s fallen off too that way. And I’ve told them, I said, you’ve incurred $15,000 in extra design. And my accountant is now going to have to account both units. So it’s important. Like it’s a huge, huge cost to say, I want to go out on my own and build my own house inside this duplex. It really makes it two separate projects. So I think it’s really important to keep that focus and keep those base materials the same.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yeah. So if you’re going to do this project, you got to know that you’re not building just your own single family home. You put another family and with tastes and, and a budget as well.

Kiff:

We never, I really importantly, I think we never lost sight of what we were doing. It, you see it time and time again, where people overspend and they say, oh, it’s my dream home. But you just got to really remember what it is and what you’re doing.

Mike:

I have a question as a homeowner, if I redeveloped my home and build a duplex and I hold both units in one is a rental unit. Am I considered owning two homes at that point? Or am I considered holding one home? Like, how was that set up?

Cam:

As soon as we finished the building process within the process to get our occupancy permit, we did have to register two PIDs. So you would have be holding two properties and that we did elect to stratify, as I mentioned earlier. So perhaps that was the reason for the separate PIDs. I’m not sure if there’s a process where you can keep it as, as all one property.

Jennifer-Lee:

What is a PID for anyone that doesn’t know a property identifier?

Kiff:

So, a property identifier was what you would need to get a mortgage. So I guess what we’re saying is that, you know, the property, when we got our hands on it, it had one PID, therefore you’d have one mortgage. We had to actually split it into two PIDs to get two different mortgages. And just to touch on what Cam was saying, you could actually hold a duplex in a non-strata manner and have one PID. Having said that the municipalities are adamantly opposed to it. And I think they’re going to start to clamp down on that.

Jennifer-Lee:

That would make it harder to sell though. Like if you had a disagreement.

Kiff:

That’s why they’re doing it. It’s for future consideration. They can see the problem going there. Like it’s two doors, two homes, but only one property identified.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yeah. Because I feel like if you are going to go in this with your brother or your friend, even if you guys have a great relationship, like you do, but with Cam just hates you tomorrow and is like, I got to sell. And he can’t, if you guys own the property together.

Kiff:

And it was a great question because that’s what started it all. So yeah. That’s what the second PID allows you to do. And that’s what the stratification is doing is providing that second PID and giving you that freedom.

Mike:

When one of you has quintuplets and needs a bigger place. Yeah. They’re still okay.

Cam:

That’s right.

Jennifer-Lee:

Awesome. I’m glad that we got that clarified because I was also thinking that too. So I’ll jump in here because like I said, I lived in a duplex and there’s so many misconceptions about living in a duplex, which I don’t think is fair. So I want to hear from you guys, what is it like to really live in a duplex? And what are some things that maybe some of your friends or, or other people have said like, Oh, you’re, you’re doing a duplex. That you’d be like, no, actually this is why we’re in a duplex. And we’re happy.

Cam:

For me that I really like about the duplex is it it’s in a neighborhood. So I’ve lived in high rises all my life. And now we’re actually in a neighborhood. There’s two parks within walking distance for our little kiddos. And it’s just really nice. It’s just nice and relaxing. I quite enjoy the atmosphere, but also living next to, and this is a very personal like of it, but Kiff has a one-year-old son and I have an almost two year old daughter and they can just run around in the backyard together. At any time, you know, we don’t have to drive them over to the other person’s house. So living in close proximity in that regard is a huge benefit for us raising our families together.

Kiff:

Yeah. And I mean, you talk about the times we’re in, you know, it, it was definitely not anticipated, but we were able to sort of quarantine together with our families and, you know, it provided a bit of you know, not everyone had company the last sort of 12 months and it provided us that, and we know looking forward that our parents, they’ll be able to come down to one property and enjoy both grandkids, both families without sort of, you know, the whole shift of the whole family happening. So it’s just that kind of gathering point Cam and I are close in age, we share some of the same friends. So you kind of see familiar faces coming and going. And, I think overall, it just feels great. It’s just a good feeling. And like Cam said to be in a neighborhood as opposed to a concrete jungle is really, really awesome.

Jennifer-Lee:

And this is a question that I always got growing up – is there enough space?

Cam:

I was living in 600 square feet before and now we’re living in 2,400 square feet. So I would say, yes, there’s, there’s definitely enough room in a duplex. We’ve got bedrooms for everyone, a spare room for any guests and enough bathrooms. So yeah, it really works out for us.

Jennifer-Lee:

I think this is great. I honestly, like I said, I think duplexes need to be celebrated more. And the fact that people still think that there’s not enough space in a duplex, but people crammed themselves into a tiny condo. It’s crazy to me that people even think that way still.

Cam:

And I think you, you know, you talk about a stigma and I didn’t really think there was one until you mentioned it. And then after you mentioned it, when we talked earlier, it kind of resonated with me. You know, being the age that Cam and I are, we have friends that are entering the market, the housing market, it’s a challenge. And we see what they’re kind of going with similar value to what we sit at. And you end up with a really, really old, tired home. Granted you get the full yard and everything, but I just think that again, looking at what we have and looking at what we would have for the same budget in the single family market, it’s just not comparable.

Mike:

And I think if you can make it work, you’re well ahead of the curve, because by 2050, there’s going to be virtually zero single family dwellings built. So number one, you’re learning to live like this. And number two, you’re able to figure it out before everyone else has figured it out. I’m sure there’s a lot of people living in high rises right now who are going to be listening to this going, I should really do that too.

Kiff:

You know, it’s a really liberating thing to get that space and that freedom

Jennifer-Lee:

And like you said, most importantly now in COVID like, I love the fact that your kids could play together during COVID because that’s the one thing living on my own in the first shutdown. It’s like, oh, you’re not allowed to see anyone. It’s like, well, I’m by myself, but you guys have each other.

Kiff:

Yeah. We consciously bubbled up. And that was, you know, all within the rules. And it was one of the best things that we did.

Cam:

Not all sunshine and rainbows, you know, living next to a builder, you have power tools going off at 7:00 AM in the morning on Saturday and Sunday, which can kind of get on your nerves. But you know, it’s, it’s been fine. It’s been a lot of fun.

Mike:

What a great conversation for you because you are in finance, we’ve talked a lot about the building itself, the structure itself, the what, the, why, all the good stuff. I’d like to understand a little bit more about the financing, because it’s a very different process than buying a unit in a condominium or a home or anything else like that. Because Cam you’re in the banking industry, can you talk to me a little about how this banking formula works and how the financing works relative to a duplex versus a conventional style of home?

Cam:

So the, the biggest intricacy that was involved with this one was the construction piece. Construction financing is always a headache. It’s never as smooth as you had hoped it goes. But what we ended up doing was approaching the bank with all four of us as guarantors on the loan. And so they were able to pool our combined, incomes together and qualify us for the construction mortgage. And then as we moved through the construction process and incurred costs, we would approach the bank for draws on that construction mortgage. I don’t recall what the typical draw was, but, you know, for example, you would do $250,000 worth of work. You would pay those invoices and then you’d submit that to the bank to be reimbursed on those invoices. And so it can get fairly clunky in that process with the bank. I mean, you do have to pay for that. I use the example $250,000. You do have to pay for that upfront and then get reimbursed for it. So it does take a little bit more money than one would expect, but you end up whole at the end of it.

Jennifer-Lee:

I’m glad that he had you because all of a sudden, once you started talking about money, it went right over my head.

Kiff:

I think it is what it is, is construction financing is difficult. The bank never wants to be left holding the bag. And so as a builder, we’re always staying ahead of them and giving them comfort. And I think that’s all is canvassing is you got to stay ahead of that bank with those payments. And then the very last payment, it all sort of catches up. But again, you talk about a duplex. Those payments were cut in half between two of us. So it made it that much more manageable.

Jennifer-Lee:

Nice and Kiff, is it easier to tear down and build a brand new duplex or is it easier to renovate one into a duplex or a fourplex or a triplex? We’ll get them all in there.

Kiff:

Yeah. And I think both certainly possibilities. When you start to look at, you know, what you’re investing in that property. I would always sort of start by starting fresh with a new build. And, and there’s a lot of reasons for that. And one of them is certainly that at least at Davenport, and I know a lot of other builders are focused on this. We’re building to tomorrow’s code rather than today’s or yesterday’s code. We know that the Step Code is coming in the higher and higher levels. And so, it’s, we don’t want it to come as a surprise. So we are really focused on building these Step Three, Step Four, Step Five’s. Because you have to remember, we don’t think about this, but in 20 years’ time, if there’s a street and there’s 10 homes for sale, you know, in 25 years, a lot of those will be Step Five. And so do you want this Step Three home sitting in the middle of all these step five homes, it might become something that’s more difficult to sell down the line. So that’s another way of factoring in that new versus renovation as well.

Jennifer-Lee:

And what is the incremental cost of building two homes versus one large home? And what are the financial differences? Maybe Cam you can take that one.

Cam:

Yeah, I think that was something that Kiff and I sat down and thought long and hard on and correct me if I’m incorrect here. But it seemed as though it was a fairly similar build to a single family home with the exception of you have two kitchens, you know, it’s just, everything is more six bathrooms instead of three, but, those were all split. Those are all our own. And so where the biggest savings was splitting the cost of the land and we felt the construction didn’t really cost any more than what we would’ve cost spent to build a house anyway.

Kiff:

Yeah, you’re spot on with that. I think what you do get is you get economies. So all of our let’s talk about our permit fees. Let’s talk about our engineering fees. Let’s talk about all these costs that are associated with a property are all split in half and then you get to the construction. And I think all you want to do there is be careful that you’re not multiplying an entry level, single family homes, price per square foot over a duplex, because like Cam said, you have four kitchens in this home. There’s eight bathrooms in this home. So definitely some economies on the engineering, on the permitting and all that. But you know, you do see a small premium when you come to finishing with all those kitchens and bathrooms.

Jennifer-Lee:

I think Canada’s episode has been a ton of fun. I’m a huge fan of duplex living. If you couldn’t tell already, you know it, cause I talk about it this whole episode. I loved living in a duplex and I felt that it was a great place for my family to have their home. And I’m really glad that we’re seeing more and more communities open up to this type of housing and seeing more and more of them in the Lower Mainland as a viable housing choice. I have great memories growing up in a duplex and I know your kids and many other kids will too.

Mike:

I really enjoyed this conversation. I’m actually going to explore the idea of building a duplex on my property. As we contemplate several generations living under one roof, our changing needs even aging in place, It’s a really important conversation to have, including how to plan ahead. We learned so much in this episode. Things like to plan ahead when building today to protect your investment, you can build tomorrow’s code Net Zero, not to today’s or yesterday’s code and in the process enjoy increased comfort, health and safety. We also learned that duplexes offer a ton of added value, both financially and personally. Well in excess of the small build cost versus a conventional bill. It’s a great idea to stratify, but you always want to talk to a lawyer to get legal advice. And when you are deciding on which side to live on, make sure you talk to your brother if they’re a builder. If you guys could leave our listeners with just one last piece of advice, what would it be? Kiff? Cam?

Kiff:

If you’re thinking about it, you know, there’s lots of reasons to hesitate, but, there’s more reasons to just go for it, get your feet wet and see what you can accomplish. It’s quite rewarding when it all comes finished.

Cam:

I agree. And as the banker in the room, I would suggest talking to your bank early and often and fully understand what the bank expects of you and what you can expect of the bank.

Jennifer-Lee:

So, if listeners want to contact you Kiff, where’s the best place to reach you?

Kiff:

They can check out our website, www.Davenporthomes.ca. And my personal email is listed at the top there at Kiff@davenporthomes.ca and that goes to the phone, so I’m always there.

Mike:

Thank you both. If you enjoyed this podcast, please follow and share with your family and friends. The more followers we have, the better chance more people will find our podcasts and the excellent resources our guests are sharing. I’m learning so much more of a planning for my own home project. The idea of improving comfort, health and safety for my family and investment is becoming more apparent with each episode. So I’m probably going to book a meeting with my mayor to talk about doing a duplex in my neighborhood.

Jennifer-Lee:

This is a valid point Mike. Not every neighborhood allows for multi-family housing solutions. If you’re interested in duplexes or fourplexes, talk to your local officials, share this podcast and share these examples of successful projects. It is how we can help open our minds to new and not so new solutions.

Mike:

Thanks for joining us today. Be sure to tune in next week.

Jennifer-Lee:

This has been Measure Twice, Cut Once the podcast from HAVAN, the Homebuilders Association Vancouver, thanks for joining us today.

Mike:

For notes and links to everything mentioned on today’s episode, go to havan.ca/measuretwicecutonce.

Jennifer-Lee:

Follow us and review us to help empower homeowners like yourself to make the right decision the first time.

Mike:

Until next time. This is Mike Freedman.

Jennifer-Lee:

And I’m Jennifer Lee. Reminding you to measure twice.

Mike:

and cut once.