BRIGHT IDEAS

Packed with bright ideas, Jordanna Nelson of Robinson Lighting & Bath shares insight on light in the home. Layers and dimmers are just some of the tips to help improve the atmosphere and how we function in the home.

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Podcast Partner Robinson Lighting & Bath
Podcast Partner AI Technology & Design
Powered by Rami Films
Distributed by Buzzsprout
Co-Host: Mike Freedman, owner,  AI Technology & Design
Co-Host, podcast editor: Jennifer-Lee Gunson: jPod Creations

Jordanna Nelson, Robinson Lighting & Bath

jordanna attended both SFU and UBC.  While working through her Urban Land Economics in 2002 she was recruited by MĀC Marketing Systems, kickstarting a long career in Sales and Marketing.  Mrs. Nelson was head hunted by some of the largest real estate developers in Vancouver; working for Polygon Homes and Onni Group of Companies to name a few.  Jordanna also had the privilege of leading the team at Bastion Developments as their Vice President of Sales and Marketing before choosing to start a family.  Mrs. Nelson was introduced to the Robinson Supply group in 2009 to create a new business development arm focused on high-density hospitality and multi-family.  She has the honour of working with the talented pool of Interior Designers and Architects in the Lower Mainland to create; cohesive, inspired kitchen and bath design.  Mrs. Nelson is a dedicated and loving wife and mother of two amazing girls.  Jordanna is passionate about; fitness, health, and interior design completing her Holistic Nutritionist Designation and most recently graduating from the Interior Design Institute as a Registered Interior Designer.  A lifelong learner and traveler, Jordanna is also learning the violin with her eldest daughter and planning a much-awaited trip through Europe and Morocco.

Mike Freedman, AI Technology & Design

Mike Freedman is not the world’s most interesting person…but he is close!  He has done it all from being a radio personality to working for record labels, iconic audio brands, founding companies and even working as a body guard for a number of high-profile celebrities and politicians.

In 2000, after finishing his education at University of Windsor, originally planning on continuing his radio career in BC, over the last 2 decades Mike has worked for world leading audio companies such as Sonos and Beats as well as iconic brands like Linn, Tannoy, PMC, Parasound, Sennheiser and many others.  He retired from Sonos in 2017 and founded Audio Insider in 2019, rebranded to AI Technology & Design in 2022.  Mike is a proud member of HAVAN and sits on 3 committees (Membership, E&T and Supplier’s Council), volunteers at events and is the co-host of HAVAN’s podcast, Measure Twice, Cut Once.

In his spare time Mike is actively involved in federal politics, volunteers in his community. He has also written several kids’ books and is finishing his first novel.  He is married with 3 kids and 3 black labs.

Effects of light on circadian rhythm:
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/emres/longhourstraining/light.html

What is a reflected ceiling plan:
https://mtcopeland.com/blog/what-is-a-reflected-ceiling-plan/

How lighting needs to change as we age:
https://www.thelightbulb.co.uk/resources/how-lighting-needs-to-change-as-we-age/

What is colour temperature:
https://www.standardpro.com/guide-colour-temperature/

Lighting Tips for a rental unit:
https://www.apartmentguide.com/blog/home-lighting-tips-brighten-rental/

CEDIA Sound Advice

Jennifer-Lee:

Welcome to Measure Twice, Cut Once the podcast from HAVAN, the Homebuilders Association of Vancouver.

Mike:

It’s season three, and we’re exploring how our homes can improve our wellbeing.

Jennifer-Lee:

We’ll be looking at the impact of the air we breathe,

Mike:

The water we drink and

Jennifer-Lee:

and the acoustic levels in our homes,

Mike:

Smart kitchens,

Jennifer-Lee:

Award winning designs,

Mike:

And leading edge building construction.

Jennifer-Lee:

We ask the questions.

Mike:

So you know how to make your home work for you.

Jennifer-Lee:

I’m Jennifer Lee Gunson.

Mike:

And I’m Mike Friedman. Now that you here why not hit subscribe and you’ll never miss an episode.

Jennifer-Lee:

Hey Mike, here we are again,

Mike:

Back at her, Jennifer-Lee any day in the studio is a great day. Last episode was so interesting. I could have chatted with Brett for hours about how buildings can improve our lives.

Jennifer-Lee:

I know you could. It really got me think about the space I live in. And even though I rent some of his basic tips can be easily incorporated into a rental space as well. I was especially interested in light as I live in a basement suite and it is very dark

Mike:

And speaking of light, we’re going to be continuing on the theme of healthy homes. And today we’re going to dig into light and sound two elements, very close to my heart.

Jennifer-Lee:

Don’t we know it. Let’s bring in today’s guest Jordanna Nelson from BA Robinson. Welcome.

Jordanna:

Thanks for having me.

Jennifer-Lee:

Awesome. Well, you graduated as a registered interior designer from the Interior Design Institute, and I know you’ve been working in the real estate industry with major developers, such as Polygon Homes and Onni Group, just to name a few, and you also have experienced designing for the hospitality industry, two very different industries, but with a common thread, making people happy in spaces.

Mike:

So true Jennifer and welcome Jordanna. I’m really excited to have you on the show today. I am a bit of a sound geek and I know you’re passionate about lighting design. And as far as I’m concerned, those two topics go hand in hand to improve the atmosphere of any home or any space. So why don’t we start by having you tell us a little about what inspires you, you in the world of design.

Jordanna:

I love life filled spaces where an individual’s personality is imparted in where they live. There’s a lot of these homogenous designs that you see and people will emulate it. They want to copy it and you’ll see it in every shop that you pass on South Granville street. You’ll be like, oh, look at that design. It’s very similar to that design. But then you walk into a space where the personality is shining through. It’s just amazing.

Jennifer-Lee:

I love that breathing life into a space because a lot of us don’t think about that when we’re on Pinterest or we’re taking a look at designs, it’s like, how does this affect me? Does what does this say about me? Because I’ll look in a catalog and I’ll be like, oh, well I love that space. I want it to look exactly like that. But is that really how I live? Is that how I live my life? No, like I might be a little bit messy. That would be a few sweaters on the ground and a few things like that might make it more me. And I think a lot of the times as we get so sucked into these beautiful spaces, but we don’t really let them reflect ourselves.

Jordanna:

I really think the best designs are organic where you’ll start with a template. Like I like this. And then over time, all that personality will come out.

Mike:

And I think experiencing the space as opposed to seeing it adds a whole other element as well. So what I mean by that is if you’re looking at a picture of a space that doesn’t, you can’t hear the sound in that space, you can’t see the differences in lighting scenes. You can’t smell the fresh air coming in or anything else like that. So it is very experiential. And I think that’s why it’s so important to have people like you in our lives. Because if I can’t conceive of it myself, we need someone else who knows what they’re talking about to point us in the right direction and to narrow down the abundance of choices, to something that works for all of us to improve our space.

Jennifer-Lee:

And when people do look at those pretty pictures online, they forget about elements like light and sound like that’s all part of the interior design process. And people don’t think about it. They’re just like, oh, I want a nice couch with some pillows and I want to put some paint up and I’m going to renovate, but they don’t think about two important elements, which is light and sound. You need to be able to hear in the space, you need to be able to create those experiences with sound. Music is really the melody of our life, right? And it generates that. And other sounds help us live our lives as well. And same thing with light. If you can’t see where you are in your space, it’s not really going to help you. So, Mike, can you tell us a little bit about what inspires you for sound?

Mike:

Well, I mean, the first thing that inspires me for sound is the sound itself. If it’s music we’re talking about having that music in the room, I mean, there’s all these physiological chain changes that happen to us. When we introduce music to a household, happiness increases the way people interact with each other increases. And just even the type of conversations we have versus when we’re watching TV or a one way medium like that as well. But I find that’s only part of it. That’s only part of what gives life to a room. We have to see the space we’re in and to experience. And I think it’s that combination of everything that comes together. And what really inspires me is how, what we do, compliments, what you do and what the builder does. And the rest of the design team has. But together and how it all goes together for a cohesive experience in the home

Jordanna:

Done well. Cause there’s the opposite. And, and even the layman will walk into a space and they won’t feel comfortable. They won’t know why something about the lighting will be agitating, but when it’s done well, they’ll feel right in a space. And they also don’t know why. And

Mike:

You just said something and I think it’s so important. Part of what we do, everything we talk about on the show is how everyone works together to create this experience. So it’s not just any one particular thing, like you said, it’s the result of a partnership and a collaboration between different professionals, professionals like you and I and the builder and the electrician, and every other person who plays a crucial role in creating this wonderful, healthy, organic space for the homeowner.

Jennifer-Lee:

What’s the number one misconception people might have about lighting when you’re lighting a space.

Jordanna:

I would think that enough and done. I get this where like, oh, I have a here in this room or I have enough pot lights in that room. And they’ll think of like one type of light source. They’ll say like, oh, I have recess lighting that space, but that might be great for your task lighting, but it’s not enough for your ambient light, which you might transfer into in the evening time. Thinking about the light that you don’t necessarily require, but you might need or enjoy on top of that basic level of task lighting.

Jennifer-Lee:

We don’t think about that. Usually I just walk in the store. I’m like, I like that lamp. I don’t know if it’s going to be able to light up the area. I just know that it looks good and I want it in my space. I don’t know if it’s practical or not. And I think that’s the same thing that can be said for sound. Mike, what is the biggest misconception about sound in the space?

Mike:

I think the biggest misconception is you can put the same speaker in 20 different rooms and get the same experience. Just like you could put the same light in 20 different rooms and get the experience when you’re dealing with the right people, whether it’s light or sound or anything else, you have to match the space, the level of experience in terms of the aesthetic design and the lighting and the sound all has to be together. And one can’t be overwhelming or underwhelming, otherwise everything is missed.

Jennifer-Lee:

And I think that’s something you alluded to Jordanna, as well as like you might see a light in the store, but maybe it’s something and be able to light your place the way you like it, just because it’s expensive and it looks beautiful doesn’t mean it’s going to be great. Same thing for sound, Mike, you could go into a room and be like, that is the best speaker because it’s so much money. But again, it might not be the great quality and might not fit in the space acoustically.

Mike:

It could be the best speaker in the world. If it doesn’t look good in there, the designer’s going to kill me. So that’s another part of the thing that we have to balance. It’s not just the experience itself. It’s how everything goes together. Now I have a question for you, Jordanna. When we’re talking about that, right, this light doesn’t provide as much light. That light provides too much. And we combine everything for someone thinking about this. Obviously we always recommend they deal with a professional like yourself, but if I’m thinking about my space, is there a formula or a rule of thumb I should be using to figure out how much light I actually need in a room

Jordanna:

As a very fundamental it’s about one wat per square foot that would light your space, like light enough so that you’re able to function and you’re not going to cut your finger off when you’re, you’re preparing for your dinner. But aside from that basic requirement, a lot of things have to be taken into consideration. So natural light is one orientation of your home. So if you’re in an apartment and you’re south facing or west facing north facing, you’ll get different lights, different times a day. Things like that. Also a lot of people working from home right now. So there’s been this move to the home office and people will go, oh, I need to light my space. I’m going to go buy a nice table lamp and they’ll walk in and they’ll pick the first thing that they see. And it’s a glare bomb. So instead of being helpful, it’s this thing, that’s agitating them all day, this like bright light bomb.

Jennifer-Lee:

And I think that’s another thing. And I was curious on this is the fact that when you are lighting for zoom and a lot of people are lighting for their calls. I know a lot of friends that have nothing to do with the YouTube industry or the media industry, and they’re going out just because they saw somebody have a ring light and they’ll use a ring light for Zoom, but those actually don’t light you proper. Those are for makeup and other specific videos. So what would you say to people that are trying to find light for their office? They can be seen on a Zoom call.

Jordanna:

It’s so funny. You mention that because I never thought so much about my light until I started Zoom calling exclusively last year. In which time I did buy a ring light. No, it’s okay. Cuz I saw it. I was like, I need one of those. So I got one of those, but then I became hyper aware of the lighting around me and how to use that lighting around me. So I do have recess lights. I do have other decorative fixtures in my home and I played around with it. So one thing I am always telling friends that are building new or clients of mine that are building new is have more light than you think you’ll need, have zones of light so that you’re able to turn them off, turn them on, have them on dimer switches. So different times of day, you’re able to create that mood.

Jordanna:

And for it, ironically not for the Zoom calls, it came in handy cause I was like, oh, you know, I don’t want recess lighting shining down on my face and creating shadow. It doesn’t matter if I have that pretty ring light. I bought on Amazon to light me. If I’ve got this shadow, then it’s just going to cast. So it’s like hyper aware of trying to get rid of those shadows in the room. But then as soon as the Zoom call was down, I would turn it down to a nice reasonable level of light that was comfortable. Definitely got a new appreciation for people in film industry.

Mike:

Well, here’s the other part. You can have lots of lights through your house. It’s the type of bulb and illumination you have as well. In our last episode with Brett, we talked a lot about color temperature and how it relates to wellness. Can you talk about color temperature? So first of all, our listeners understand what we’re referring to and second of all, how that can impact how we deploy lighting throughout our house and design the lighting in our house. So

Jordanna:

A really quick, sort of easy to under stand synopsis of color temperature. So let’s say when we were a caveman, we relied exclusively on flame. Flame is about 1800 Calvin. And as we’ve developed like Edison developed the light bulb, the light bulb burns at about 3000 Calvin, which is quote unquote, daylight temperature. So then we got accustomed to that burning filament, which was still what we were accustomed to when we were Cavemen, which is 1800, that burning light. And now we’ve developed fluorescent light halogen light now L E D light, which all have different color temperature. This is why it’s a hot topic. Most people suggest around 3000 K, which is our daylight, but it really depends on the light source. So I always recommend to friends and clients again, buy that actual, whatever it is, recess, fixture light bulb, buy one and plug it in and see how it works in this space. See how it makes you actually feel cuz one person’s, um, experience of a 3000 K might be different than someone else’s.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yeah, it’s interesting. You say that because when I was researching this topic and I was watching a lot of YouTube videos on lights, they were showing different lamps beside each other with different types of bulbs. And some gave me like a bad reaction, like the really bright ones. I was like, no, and then I was more attracted to the warm. And so it’s interesting like how each person and some people are attracted to more colder type of light than a warmer type of light.

Jordanna:

It also depends on the design. So you see these really stark, modern space and you might want to go to a 3,500 or even a 4,000 K, which is really cool white light because you’ve got white walls and you’ve got really stark modern furniture. So that type of lighting in that space works. But if you’re building a cabin and you want a nice cozy space to coordinate with your Woodburn fireplace, then you’re going to wanna stay with something warmer, more like 2,700 K

Jennifer-Lee:

And this stuff sounds confusing to me. So would it be great to get an expert like yourself to help you, especially if you’re trying to light a bigger space because you just lost me on like

Speaker 4:

The Ks, all the Ks.

Jennifer-Lee:

It’s like, I don’t know, now I’m gonna go home and be like, how many Ks are you? I don’t know.

Mike:

Well, the nice thing is we are living in an era where technology is level to playing field. So at my house I have adjustable bulbs and there’s a different light level during the day versus night. And there’s a couple reasons for that. It’s about a comfortable space in the room. We don’t want it to be too glaring, but we know at night we want to start to ramp down our exposure to certain light levels so we can sleep at night. So what’s great is in a lot of cases you don’t even have to pick one bulb or another anymore. We can just put the right functioning bulb in and customize the experience based on, like you said, natural daylight in the room, time of day, personal preference. What we like versus the person beside us likes. And we’ve never had a better opportunity to equalize the environment inside the house as we do right now. It’s really exciting time.

Jordanna:

Preset dimmer switches, where they can be automatically set for, let’s say 6:30 PM. Your entire living room in kitchen is diming. So you’re presetting, like you said, that natural circ rhythm to need to slow down and unwind at a certain time to get ready for sleep.

Jennifer-Lee:

And that’s when automation is really helpful because it can do that. And it doesn’t only just do it for light is sound too. A lot of people don’t think about the levels of sound I know from broadcasting, they always teach us too. They’re like why when you go to sleep, you wake up and then you get in your car and all, and you’re like trying to rush and push the sound down because it’s so loud in your car because as the day goes on, slowly, turn everything up, louder, louder, louder, and then you kind of reset in your sleep. And then that’s why it sounds like you’re at a rock concert when you get in your car in the morning. It’s just interesting me. Like we’ve opened up a whole new topic of the fact that it’s just like, I didn’t even really think about until we started talking, is that there are all these technologies out there for light and sound that are trying to get us kind of back into that into that caveman way.

Jordanna:

Absolutely. Well, it’s so important. It and wellness and wellness at home weren’t as hot topic or pushed to the forefront until COVID happened until the pandemic. Cuz all of a sudden we were forced to ourselves. I think we’re in our personal spaces and we start to analyze these things that just really aren’t working that are like you said, jarring to the system, like who wants that being blaring radio first thing in the morning, that’s not a good feeling or a bright, like bright, bright yucky, L E D light in your face. It just throws you off and you’re not even sure why. So to have these systems that can automatically adjust to what you need eat is brilliant.

Jennifer-Lee:

No, I did that this morning. I went to go get my coffee and I usually have just the little pot lights on I grab, I hit the wrong switch and all of a sudden the main light went on. I was like, no, I was like, I haven’t had coffee. And then you’re like panicking and trying to like hit the switch again.

Jordanna:

Absolutely. I always call it like the freezer section and in your grocery store. That never feels good. You can find what you’re looking for, but you don’t want to spend a lot of time in that space. You’re like, no moving on.

Mike:

We were talking a little about moods earlier and sort of the, the emphasis on wellness at home using lighting. One thing I think a lot of our listeners would already be familiar with is a seasonal disorder. And of course we’re talking about lighting in the winter months versus lighting in the summer months. Can you talk to us about how we can design our homes to circumvent the challenges that come with darker, shorter days that we get on the Pacific Northwest?

Jordanna:

Absolutely. I really am a big believer of dimmers. So even if you’re in a, in an apartment, you could easily install a dimer switch. Dimmers are really, really crucial, cuz then you’re not needing to put in exact lighting like you were saying, but you have a system even as simple as diming where you can use bright light during the day that white light, let’s say in the afternoon when your natural rhythm is to slow down. So between two and 5:00 PM, we all have that slump like that. Uh, I need a coffee or I need a nap or need something. So to have that ability to have that light, bright, bright to get you going. And a lot of people buy little table lamps, like the happy lights and they do work for some people. They don’t work for others.

Jennifer-Lee:

I’m skeptical. So I bought one this year and I have like one of the sad lights and I don’t know, like first off it’s got like a hundred bright functions that they’re so bright, like later than like, I don’t know, turning your regulars lights on. Like I first hit it on and I almost blinded myself and then to put on a low mode, it is still really bright. I have to literally it’s a square too. Like it’s weird. It’s like, it looks like a tablet. I have to turn it to the wall and I, I just don’t feel good. I feel like it makes me angry.

Jordanna:

It works for some people, not for others. What I recommend, like I had a friend who asked about this and I said, you know what? Just put it in the room, but away from you. Because I think the thing people get all excited, they’ll buy it, they’ll put it right. It’s on their

Jennifer-Lee:

Desk in front of me. Yeah.

Jordanna:

Glaring them in the face. And that would just be agitating to anyone. So if you had somewhere in your room where it’s just this ambient sort of like if you’re to open a window, that’s the equivalent. Like it’s just a bright source of light that’s sort of around you make, can you feel a bit better about the space also being aware, not to use it past 5:00 PM cuz after that time you are going to wanna naturally come down.

Jennifer-Lee:

I think you’re right. I think that should come with instructions and definitely did not. I don’t think I should be putting it anywhere near me, but I think we just assume it’s a lamp. It goes on a table and it goes right by us. But, Jordanna looking at light and sound and the value you it brings to the people inside our homes is so inspiring. I love it. We have a lot more to uncover, but first we’re going to take a quick break to thank our sponsors

Mike:

Measure Twice, Cut Once is grateful for the support from our podcast partners, Fortis BC, BA Robinson, AI Technology and Design and their support helps us share expert knowledge and resources like you’re hearing today from Jordanna from BA Robinson to help build, design and renovate the right home for you.

Jennifer-Lee:

Speaking of resources, the BC Energy Step Code program is provincial standard that is moving the entire home building industry forward to build homes to better energy efficiency standards, which means better comfort, health and safety. Be sure to check out better homes.bc.ca, where you’ll find a variety of rebates for construction materials, energy evaluations, plus mortgage and tax refunds.

Mike:

There are also rebates for renovations too. Just click on the rebate search tool button on the homepage of better homes.bc.ca to find cost saving resources for your next project or talk with your license builder, professional contractor or lighting expert. They’ll help guide you. Now let’s get back to Jordanna. We got a lot more to uncover.

Jennifer-Lee:

So we talked a little bit about this at the beginning of this episode, but for building and renovations, you said more is better. A lot of people don’t think about when they go into a space, the light aspect. So can you tell us a little bit more about your theory about more is better?

Jordanna:

So especially when you’re building, when you have the opportunity to renovate or building noon, you’re already tearing up the walls or framing. I always see more is better because you it’s nice to have options with anything, right? So if you were to create a reflected ceiling plan, which is essentially a light plan for a home, then you are accommodating for task lighting. You’re accommodating for ambient lighting, you’re accommodating for additional lighting that might be required down the road. The worst case scenario is you cap it off like your family’s in the home building business. And so you might not want to put a light fixture at that time, but if you’ve created the junction box for them to actually put something down the road, then they can. Whereas if you were to decide as the homeowner that you want additional light, then you’re getting the electrician in, you’re tearing up a wall and it’s just way more cumbersome.

Jennifer-Lee:

I think you hit it on the head there. It’s always important to have a great builder is because they’ll have that foresight to think about, okay, as you age in this home and you live your life, maybe you’re going to wanna move lights into this area of the home. And a lot of people don’t think about that, but again, if you hire a great builder that work your lighting designer, if you have one or your interior designer and the other experts to create those things. So down the road, you’re not like, ah, I wish I could plug this lamp into this corner right now

Jordanna:

Or staying like we’re seeing a lot of people over pandemic, you know, would’ve downsized, but they’ve decided they want to stay in their home. Cuz we’re spending so much time in our homes. And I don’t know if you know this, but as you age, the lighting requirements are actually twice as much as when you’re in your twenties.

Jennifer-Lee:

Yeah. I heard somewhere and correct me if I’m wrong, but seniors homes, care homes have a lot more light. That’s why when you go by, you’re like, whoa, that’s bright at nighttime.

Jordanna:

Very bright. Like I said twice as much. So when you’re 20, it’s like let’s say generally one watt per square foot is where we started. It’s twice as much. And other things to be sort of considered of is glare. Glare becomes a real issue. As people age, you have macular degeneration. So your vision and your perception of light is a lot different.

Jennifer-Lee:

So less is more is not this case when it comes to lighting.

Jordanna:

Absolutely not worst case scenarios. I say, put them all in, put everything on dimmers or at least your main living areas. So if you’re not using it or you just need it on ish, sort of on, then you have that diming option

Mike:

And there’s other things we can do as well. I mean, we’re designing for aging in place. We often put motion sensors in the bathroom, people at night, forget to turn on the lights. Well, bathroom is one of the most dangerous places in the house falling on those hard surfaces and things like that. So there’s a lot of things that we can do now and in the future for aging in place, I do want to go back to something you talked about just a few moments ago when you talked about a reflective ceiling plan and I’d like you to expand a little bit more on that. Because in the old days it was just lighting. Well now we have sprinklers since smoke CO2 detectors and somebody wanted to go put speakers in the ceiling. So that has to fit in there as well. Talk a little bit more about a reflective ceiling plan and why that can create such more cohesive results for someone who’s designing and building.

Jordanna:

Absolutely. Especially if you have the privilege of building new with that in mind, a reflective ceiling plan is essentially a bird’s eye view of the floor plan. So it’s not the floor plan. You’re looking at everything in the ceiling. And so a really good reflected ceiling plan is when you are accommodating for sprinkler and speakers and lighting. So you don’t have the electrician and the speaker guys standing in the living room, having a fight over which junction’s going to go on that beam.

Mike:

And that happens a lot

Jordanna:

It happens a lot. Yes.

Jennifer-Lee:

Again, you need a contractor can, uh, plan it out for you. I know what we do a lot of the times the interior designer, because once the house is starting to be a reality from the plans, it obviously can look a little bit different than being on paper. And so we will make cardboard, cutouts of chandeliers and things and like hang them. So the interior designer, when they walk through can have an idea and the client has an idea of where it is or they’re like, oh, maybe I’m not going to want this massive chandelier hanging over here.

Jordanna:

Absolutely. Like I worked on a project myself where I did more mores more. And when I got in this space, I saw the light fixtures, the pens over the island and I omitted them. So just kept them off because the space in itself was great with the lighting that it had. But sometimes you don’t know that right till the 11th hour, but now the home’s done. So if they decide to add the Pendant lights down the road, they can choose to do that.

Jennifer-Lee:

Mike, when it comes to sound, is there any future planning that you can do? Like you can do for lights? Like,

Mike:

Well, there’s a ton of things you can do. I mean, you definitely want to run way more wires than you think because technology’s going to change, period. I mean a light switch in a light has been a pretty standard part of technology. Albeit the actual way the switch works has changed a little bit, but that hasn’t changed, but a lot of the technology does change and you know, we’re going from a 4k to 16 K for video and things like that. So definitely you want to over plan and you want to give yourself a lot of like wires in the ceiling or easy to find later if you marked them out and things like that. But there’s a other things that can be done now as well. If we’re talking about planning for sound like there’s speakers that I actually go in the drywall, you don’t even see.

Mike:

So people like you don’t get angry at people like me for screwing up your beautiful ceiling that you’ve designed with all these fixtures and things like that. So there’s a lot better ways to balance it out on the flip side is, you know, you have smoke and CO2 detectors that go up there that have to be fit into that space as well. But usually what I mean, my experience is it’s best to rely on the designer to figure out the ceiling, not people like me because you have a better eye for the visualization. And more importantly, you can help incorporate all those elements in a cohesive manner. So everybody’s happy.

Jennifer-Lee:

Well, Jordanna, I was doing a lot of research last night on YouTube, about light and seeing a lot of interior designers have their input. One thing that came up a lot is the layers of light concept, which I thought was really neat. So it said when designing a room, you want layers of light there’s three. So one layer is overall lighting. One is task lighting and one is accent or mood lighting. Can you explain a little bit more about that?

Jordanna:

Yes. So overall lighting in most homes would either be ceiling mounted fixtures or you’d get recess lighting. So that’s sort of where you’re getting your one watt per square foot. That’s the basics you can fumble around through your home and not hurt yourself. The second would be task lighting. So task lighting let’s is very important in areas where you need it. So the kitchen where you’re cutting or preparing food, in your bathroom where you’re applying makeup. And that would be as simple as like recess lights that are right above your kitchen island or in the bathroom. We always get this where people want to save money and they’ll want to put a bath bar in. So that’ll be their one source of light in the bathroom, but it casts horrible shadows. So they’re like, oh, I look so tired every day. It’s like, of course you look tired, because you’re literally applying makeup under something that’s shadowy as opposed to having sconces on either side of your face, which is nice illumination.

Jennifer-Lee:

But that’s something we don’t think about. We spend actually a lot of time in the bathroom. A lot of people don’t think about out of the rooms using your home, you’re probably in the bathroom a lot. You get ready for work or school in the bathroom. Um, if you put on the makeup, like you said, you put makeup on there. So some people don’t even have a makeup mirror, but then they’re trying to do their makeup in their really dark bathroom with the one light bulb.

Jordanna:

Absolutely. So I’ll always laugh cuz people spend so much money on whatever other renovation you’ll go in and there’ll be a very large bathroom and there’ll be like one bath bar in the entire, like a vanity light for the entire space. And it’s just not enough light and not enough levels of light. Like you were saying, like in that space, you’re going to want recess lighting just so when you’re going to clean your bathroom, you can turn it on bright and actually see the floor and sweep up the dust bunnies that are floating around and then you’re going to want the sconces so you can put your makeup on and it’s a nice soft light that makes you look refreshed and awake and happy.

Mike:

And the nice thing about a bathroom is it’s not like it’s not a huge area. So it isn’t a huge amount of incremental expense to do those things. And this is what we were talking about earlier. It doesn’t cost a lot of extra money to put a couple extra lights in the ceiling. The cost is so low right now, relative to even five years ago. And whether you use those things right away or not, it, you have them available and it’s nice to have that option. It’s a lot harder to add that after when you realize you need

Jennifer-Lee:

I’m just going out on a limb here, Mike, I don’t know if this is the right question to ask you, but since we’re talking about layers of light, are there layers of sound for your home?

Mike:

Oh absolutely. We talk about zones of sound all the time and we actually map out the acoustics similar to how you would map out light, where we draw circles about conical dispersion of a speaker and, and where they overlap. It’s nerd talk. I don’t want to bore anybody, but basically we try to design sound in the house so there’s no dead spots and there’s no latency much like lighting. We don’t want spots where we go from the kitchen to the living room, but the hallway is dark and we trip and fall. It’s the same thing.

Jordanna:

It’s funny you mention that I put so much the on to my lighting design and then we cheaped out and just put two built in speakers and they just don’t cover the space. And now we have portable Sonos that goes from zone to zone.

Jennifer-Lee:

Don’t tell Mike that you – He’d be sad that you didn’t plan for sound.

Jordanna:

It’s almost good enough, but not quite so. Now we have a portable that works quite well.

Mike:

You’re doing better than most because you’ve recognized the value and need for sound in the home. And nobody will listen to this episode, never do that again. They’ll always put four speakers in just like they’re always going to put an adequate amount of lights in and this is part of how we learn this stuff. And this is part of how we disseminate the stuff is having these conversations and like a lot of things in our life we learn through experience. And so it’s a lot cheaper for our listeners to learn through our experiences than it is for them to learn through their experiences.

Jennifer-Lee:

There’s so much synergy between light and sound that we don’t even think about. I’m loving this. We’re in a studio right now and there is a beautiful chandelier that is on at the moment. Uh, going back to the layers of light, would this count as an accent light?

Jordanna:

It’d be an accent piece. Absolutely. And you know, I love decorative pieces because they are the jewelry of the home. It’s something that can easily be switched out. You can purchase it and enjoy it for a period of time as like fashion. And then when you’re done, you can replace it with something else as the design changes.

Jennifer-Lee:

But I think a misconception about chandeliers is that they can light a room.

Jordanna:

Yes, that is a common misconception. People say, oh, but I have a chandelier there. And the chandelier really is just decorative. It’s not something that should be counted as your lighting requirement.

Mike:

And half the bulbs that chandelier like five watts, little teeny weeny and night light bulbs as well. So you can add 20 of them together. You’re still not getting as much as a 60-watt incandescent bulb a lot of the time, but you are climbing up a ladder and changing the light bulbs pretty frequently, unfortunately.

Jordanna:

That’s right. Unless something, you have something like this, which is L E D and it’s meant to just last, as long as you’re interested in it lasting and which point you can switch it out.

Jennifer-Lee:

So when you’re choosing a chandelier with your interior designer, I guess it’s important to keep in mind that it’s going to be more of a jewelry piece.

Jordanna:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And most designers will walk their clients through that where it’s a, just a choice. It’s like, it’s like buying a piece of art. Like do you like that piece of art? Are you going to enjoy it for the length of lifetime in your home or at least for long enough to justify the purchase of it?

Jennifer-Lee:

Would you say that’s kind similar of lamps because I know that’s a one thing too, is when you go into lamp stores, there are some really ones that look functional and there’s ones that look super artistic.

Jordanna:

Absolutely. You’ll find that one lamp with a light shade and that’ll be a great thing for your desk. So it’s there, it’s ambient and it’s creating some task lighting for you versus something like use said, that’s meant to sit in the corner and it looks funky and it’s very Avan garde and it’s a conversation starter

Jennifer-Lee:

Really. And Mike for you, I know that there’s many, many different sound equipment, but are there some speakers that are more accent speakers that kind of go with the bigger ones? Or are there, are they all pretty much have a purpose? Because I know that like, especially if you’re trying to set up a TV and you want surround sound, you can’t just have one speaker.

Mike:

Well, there are ways to mimic it. But the bottom line is we don’t in the old days, we used to see nice tower speakers and stuff. Um, I don’t know of a single interior designer who wouldn’t chase me out of town if I tried to put them one of their projects. So we’re fighting against an aesthetic. So what you see is typically two types of speakers, either in wall speakers or in ceiling speakers and the type of room dictates, which type of speaker goes where much like it would dictate what type of light fixture would go in that room and how we’d have to give coverage to that room. And of course, like we talked about it, visible speakers as well, but I think one of the most important parts of this is how will it fit in the room? So as an example, if you’ve designed a beautiful array of lighting over top of the island in my kitchen, and there’s these nice little, two inch apertures, there’s a row of them.

Mike:

And someone like me goes and put an eight inch dinner plate, size speakers. That’s not going to work for you. So we have go to a different logic for there. And you know, in the old days, my industry used to lead by how good it sounds. And there was a lot of really ugly solutions, but they sounded good. And now I think what the best transformation I’ve seen is the fact that number one, my industry’s finally started to care how it looks. And number two, we’re doing things in such a way that supports the objective of the design community, which is where it should be. We should be following your lead, not the other way around. So there’s a lot of different kinds of speakers out there. And it really depends on what someone like yourself designs and the right kind of professional will follow your lead versus going well, we’re just going to do that, cuz it sounds best.

Jordanna:

And you know, knowing your client as well. If I were to be working with someone who let’s say has a, a beautiful collection of jewelry, vintage jewelry, lighting that jewelry in their walk-in closet or bedroom would be very different than if someone just is building a home and they’ve got young children and they just need to make sure that their kids aren’t hurting themselves in the playroom. So it’s lighting for that specific need. And that specific requirement

Jennifer-Lee:

I forgot about my dream is like on Sex in the City of having like a shoe closet and then the lights like making every shoe spark. Anyways, as you’ve said too, like Mike, you made a good point that they’re making speakers that look better and that you can include them in the interior design. Same thing for lights. I remember back in the day, my dad would take me through the houses and pop hot lights were ugly. You could see them, they were not flush with the dry, but now a lot of those functional lights that count as your overall lights actually look really nice as part of it. And they, they can have stainless steel accents and they can look really

Jordanna:

Sleek. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s how you enjoy the light in this space. So a lot of comments that I’ll get from people when I suggest a pot light, like a recess light is, oh, but I’ve got white ceilings. Like why are you specifying something that has, chrome interior, but it’s very specific like that chrome interior, it diffuses the light. So when you’re looking up the ceiling, you don’t have a glare spot. It’s really important actually. Now that some in a lot of like new homes, the ceiling height’s getting higher, I’ve noticed it’s a, to like eight and a half feet, nine feet. It might not be so noticeable in a shorter ceiling space, but as the ceiling height gets hire, that nice diffusion of light actually is very, very important.

Jennifer-Lee:

Well, I’ve just learned so much from you and Mike and I think it’s cool that we were able to tie sound and light together. Thank you so much. Jordanna thank you for joining us on today’s episode of Measure Twice, Cut Once. Light and sound are so easy to take for granted. It is so easy to overlook and yet the impact can be very impactful, both good and bad. I have a new appreciation for the little and big things we can do to make our homes more livable.

Mike:

Yes, it’s been another great episode, looking at homes through the lens of better living. Today, we talked about light and sound specifically how lighting impacts humans in the home, how to plan for good lighting in homes. And of course, some great lighting tips from Jordanna

Jennifer-Lee:

Jordanna. If you could leave the listener with one last piece of advice, what would it be

Jordanna:

Plan for lighting. Don’t have it as an afterthought. When it’s an afterthought, then you regret it. Usually in my experience

Jennifer-Lee:

And Mike, I’ve got to ask you this question. This is exciting. Can you offer homeowners one piece of sound advice?

Mike:

The best piece of sound advice I can have is make sure whoever’s designing your sound and your technology works really closely with the rest of your design team and works with them and make sure they’re following their lead. And that way you get an integrated design that every everybody’s happy about at the end.

Jennifer-Lee:

And Jordanna are there any resources that you’d like to share for listeners?

Jordanna:

There are a few links that I sent you a few on lighting for relevant that are lighting for apartments, things that you can do, even in a rental to add light or help with overall lighting. Another one from the CDC about circadian rhythm, which was really interesting, found that one the other day on how we’re affected by light and things that you can be sort of aware of. And then the other one was as you age and lighting requirements, that might be relevant to a few of your listeners.

Jennifer-Lee:

Great. That’s exciting information. And we’re going to put that up on our website and you’ll be able to browse those links. We’ll share those with our listeners and Mike, are there any resources for sound? I know you have a whole bunch of them, but are there a few?

Mike:

Absolutely. One of my favorite places to go is an organization called Cedia, C E D I A. And that is basically the governing body that regulates my industry. And there’s a ton of resources. There, there’s a ton of things that designers, builders, architects, as well as homeowners can get information about to help manage their needs for technology with their needs, for design and functionality in the house as well. So it’s a really great resource to help bring everything together. Well, thank you. Jordanna this has been an amazing episode and to our listeners, if you enjoy this podcast, please follow like and share with your family and friends. The more followers we have, the more people find our podcasts and the excellent resources our guests are sharing

Jennifer-Lee:

For notes and links to all those resources that Jordanna and Mike mentioned on today’s episode. All you have to do is go to havan.ca/measuretwicecutonce. Thanks for joining us.