Episode 70: Award-Winning Design Build Duo

Hiring and working with a dynamic duo can lead to many great outcomes, including a multitude of accolades. In the case of Aleem Kassam of Kalu Interiors and Dave Bowes of Tall Tree Construction, this team brought in multiple wins at the 2024 HAVAN Awards. Tune in for award-winning tips!

Listen to “Ep 70: Award-winning Design Build Duo” on Spreaker.

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Co-Host, podcast editor: Jennifer-Lee Gunson: jPod Creations
Co-Host, Mike Freedman, AI Technology & Design
Production: Rami Films
Distributed by Black Press Media: Today in BC.

ALEEM KASSAM – PRINCIPAL, KALU INTERIORS

Aleem started his path in Interior Design in 2004 by obtaining a formal education at the Art Institute of Vancouver. He soon found himself with a desire for adventure and furthered his education abroad at the Art Institute of Chicago to obtain a Bachelors Degree of Interior Design & Sustainable Interior Architecture. He then attended the Domus Academy in Milan for Hospitality Design and the school of Central Saint Martins in London for Retail Design. This Global perspective inspired Aleem’s taste for design and personal style.

Aleem is a fixture in both the Interior Design Industry as well as a style icon (he was named one of Canada’s best dressed in 2017.) He has made various media appearances and has been involved in designing well-known spaces both locally and abroad.

“Design has no borders, nor should we or our interiors.” -Aleem Kassam

DAVE BOWES, MANAGING PARTNER, TALL TREE CONSTRUCTION

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MTCO Ep 70 Tall Tree and Kalu Interiors Transcript

Mike

0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to Measure Twice, Cut Once. My name is Mike and thanks to hosting this show for almost 9 seasons, I almost know enough to be dangerous.

 

Jennifer Lee:

And I’m Jennifer Lee, here to keep Mike from cutting corners, literally and figuratively. You know here at Measure Twice, Cut Once we’re always talking about really cool stuff. We talk about high performance building, designer trends, breaking down regulations, high performance building solutions, you know, all of the really.

Mike

0:28

fun stuff.

Jennifer Lee

0:29

Oh, I’m really excited today to have these two guys in here because they’re actually friends in real life and my friends in real life, they’ll be Mike’s friends in two minutes.

• Mike

0:37

because we’re already friends.

• Jennifer Lee

0:38

You’re already friends? We didn’t talk about that. Today’s guest is Aleem Kassam of Kalu Interiors and Dave Bowes from Tall Tree Construction. Welcome.

• 21

0:46

Thank you.

• Jennifer Lee

0:47

Thank you. And Aleem, we’ve had you in here before, but you’ve had some big milestones last year. You had probably like the wedding of the season.

• Aleem

0:55

It was a big wedding, yes. It was. There was a helicopter involved?

Aleem:

Yeah, there was a helicopter and quite a few different musical performances, but it was definitely the wedding of our dreams.

• Mike

1:08

Oh, good Thanks for raising the bar for the rest of us as well.

Jennifer Lee

You’re already married though Mike, so your wife’s not going to expect to be up to Aleem’s level.

Mike

We’re coming up to 20 years. She’s going to want something special to celebrate 20 years of being the most patient human being on the face of this earth.

• JL

1:22

Get Aleem to plan your wedding for you then, or your vow renewal.

• Mike

1:26

There you go. We were thinking of doing it the way we should have done it in the first place and just going to Vegas, but that’s a different story. Alright, so this is going to be a really great episode and here’s why. History is full of dynamic duos. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Batman and Robin, until recently, Hall and Oates,

• JL

1:44

and of course, Aleem and Dave.

• Aleem

1:45

Hopefully, they don’t end up like Hall and Oates, but I doubt it.

• Mike

1:50

Hall and Oates couldn’t build houses or create houses near as nice as these guys. It’s apples and oranges.

• Jennifer Lee

1:54

There we go. So, let’s get to it.

• Aleem

1:56

Join us for Measure Twice.

• Mike

1:58

Cut once, because twice is just too much work.

• Jennifer Lee

2:02

And probably the wrong way if you’re cutting twice. But anyways, welcome again guys, Aleem and Dave. And Dave, we know a little bit about Aleem, but you come all the way from Australia. Can you tell us about yourself?

• Dave

2:15

Yeah, yeah, I moved to Canada nearly 13 years ago now. Went straight into construction. I was a carpenter in Australia for 10 plus years. You know, I left school at 16 to get my carpentry apprenticeship. So, by the age of 20 I had my equivalent of the Red Seal,

• 2

2:32

I guess you would say. And then I took that straight over to here, started working and then within around four, five years I think it was, we started Tall Tree Construction with my best mate and business partner, Steve.

• Jennifer Lee

2:45

Big question, why leave Australia for Vancouver?

• Dave

2:48

No, I know, I know, I get it all the time and trust me with the seasons turning now I think about it every day.

• Mike

2:55

I’m guessing less snakes and spiders.

• Dave

2:57

No that does not bother me at all because I’m way more scared of bears than I am of snakes. So, I mean you can step on a snake, you can’t step on a bear, that’s what I always say.

• Mike

3:05

Well, you can’t but only once.

• Dave

3:06

Yeah, yeah, it will bite your leg off. No, I basically, I moved here for a year just to go snowboarding. You know I was single for the first time in a while. I was 26. I was like, let’s go do the Whistler thing. And then within three weeks of moving here, I met my now wife, Francesca. So, I never did the Whistler thing. I did a lot of snowboarding. But yeah, that’s basically how I ended up here. And Tall Tree flourished from there on.

• Mike

3:33

So, Dave, now that we’ve got a chance to get to know you, I know, Aleem, you’ve been our guest before. But we have a lot of new viewers, a lot of new listeners. Could you quickly introduce yourself and tell us a little about who you are?

• Aleem

3:43

Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Aleem Kassam. I’m half of Kalu Interiors. My business partner is Phyllis Louis, and we’ve owned and operated Kalu Interiors for close to 20 years. I think we’re at about the 18-year mark, and we’re essentially a boutique design firm here in Vancouver. We do both residential and commercial projects and multifam, both new construction and renovation projects.

• Mike

4:03

And win lots of awards.

• Aleem

4:04

We try.

• Jennifer Lee

4:14

And the best table to sit with. That’s how I actually originally met the two of them, Phyllis and Aleem, is because I got sat at their table for  the HAVAN Awards. So, you guys are great to partner with. Absolutely great people.

• Mike

4:17

And we would be remiss if we weren’t thanking Megan and Cameron for letting you guys be here today as well.

• Mike

4:25

So, let’s talk about those awards. Anyone who’s ever had the privilege of being nominated for those awards knows how one, how rare it is considering how many projects get done and how special it is as well. One is a big deal but 12.

• Aleem

4:43

Is that a little excessive? It’s never too excessive.

• Mike

4:47

He had a helicopter at his wedding, it’s never too excessive. Yeah, absolutely. It feels like it fits in perfectly. So, let’s talk about some of these projects, right? Because it’s not just, hey, look at us. We’re nominated, and we keep winning these awards. There’s a lot of thought and process that goes behind those process or those project story to get you to that point. There’s challenges. There are wins. Let’s talk about all of those and what led to you being nominated from Interior Designer of the Year, these 12 finalist nominations. that you guys worked on together?

• Aleem

5:17

Yeah, for sure. So, like you said, we were really fortunate to be nominated in all these categories this year for the Haven Awards. And like every year and every project submission goes, it’s quite a long process from beginning to end. So initially starting to work with the clients, partnering with the right contracting firm like we did with Dave and Stephen Tall Tree Construction in a couple of these projects, and depending on whether it’s new construction or renovation, I mean, you know, you’re kind of living in the same bed as your contractor and your client for you know, a year.

• Aleem

5:45

You guys are cuddling up against one another basically and trying to kind of figure things out. So, of course, there’s going to be obstacles throughout any project, but in these particular ones that we were nominated in for this year and winners in a couple of these categories as well.

Aleem

6:11

I think these are really exceptional examples of the projects that we love to do for our clients. It’s taking something, for instance, in Sky House, a renovation of a penthouse in Yaletown in Vancouver. It’s taking something that is dated and breathing new life into it. We reconfigured the entire layout. Not only did it win these nominations and the award, but it was also featured in the Vancouver Sun and quite a few different design articles. And we were very lucky and fortunate to have a client that allowed a carp launch on this project as well. So, yeah

• Jennifer Lee

6:34

And I was very fortunate to be able to go through Sky House. And I thought you guys both did a really great job because it is in an older building. And then you got up there, it was a little piece of heaven and you’re like, oh, this is like a very modern oasis.

• Aleem

6:46

Exactly.

• Jennifer Lee

6:47

I liked that, I like the fire pit. Yes. I think every balcony should have a fire pit.

• 5

6:51

Absolutely.

• Aleem

6:52

Yeah, that was actually a project that we did with, again, with Dave and Steve at Tall Tree Construction. And I think one of the biggest challenges on this particular project, not only because of the layout and the scale, but there was a lot of new systems that we added. So, like the new HVAC system, I think that’s a lot of things that especially designers we don’t necessarily consider are the functional aspects behind a project, rather than just the aesthetics. So obviously all the ceiling drops, the air returns, the vents, and Dave and Steve were able to do a pretty fantastic job with our sub-trees on integrating that, and it’s the unit, I think.

• Dave

7:22

Yeah, it was definitely hard putting a HVAC system in a ceiling of a penthouse on a downtown condo. You know, it’s something, like there was an old one in there and it was massive, and we had to get it out. And then obviously you need big access panels and in a smaller, it’s not small, it’s still a big unit, but with lower things and stuff, you don’t want a huge grill over your head, so we had to go and source low profile grills, which was, this was two years ago now, I guess, when we almost, so the grills in the last two years have come a long way, but back then, I think we actually had to order it from Vancouver Island. That’s right, yeah. For this special one, a certain size and weight, opened and everything, so that was, yeah, one of the challenges for sure was putting a HVAC unit inside a drop ceiling of a condo.

• Jennifer Lee

8:08

And we’ve had to do this in the past at EuroCanadian, but because some of the products are too big to fit into the elevator, we have to crane. Did you have to do any craning on this project or everything fit nicely in the elevator?

• Dave

8:20

I wouldn’t say it fit nicely, but we made it work. Yeah, I think, so Steven was my business partner was actually the project manager on this one. He sort of takes his jobs I take mine. But I remember him having some challenges with the oversized wolf Ridge was a wolf. Yeah, we’ll fridge and then the Story Thermador. Sorry and then the size of the island that you’ve seen some of the photos I think it was like 10 feet long that’s a part of it.  So, you know getting that stone up there luckily, we didn’t have to get a crane because it was how high up was that almost 30 stories almost 30 stories, so that’s a helicopter that yeah pretty much.

Mike

8:59

So yeah, those are some of the challenges Dave. I have a question for you. When you have amazing designers there’s that gap between your vision and what you execute. How do you make up the unknowns or are there unknowns at that point like what how do you and when stuff comes up? Where you need input? How do you solve those problems? Is it a back-and-forth process? Is it a collaborative process? Is it a surprise for you at the end? Like, in general terms, but also how you guys work together.

• Dave

9:25

Yeah, it’s a mix for sure. Like, I mean, we’ve been working with Kalu, you know, since we started Tall Tree almost, you know. Obviously, gradually growing jobs, like, you know, we have to build the trust in him first, or he had to trust us first, sorry. So, he gave us a little bathroom and then we went from there. But now we know their drawings inside and out. We sort of even know if they may have missed something and if they have and we haven’t quoted it. Say something might be just like a shower niche was missed and we’re like, I’m pretty sure they want a niche. For the hassle of going to the client and saying, oh, they missed it, I would never throw them under the bus. I’m just like, hey, was there meant to be a niche here? And he’ll be like, yes. And I’m like, all right, so we will just do it you know it’s those sorts of things that build a good relationship and it’s you know you know you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours for certain thing.

• Mike

10:11

So, it also sounds like you’re collaborating for the benefit of the homeowner which is really the magic of good partnerships right there is everybody’s facing the same direction.

Dave

10:22

Yeah and working towards the same goal we always look at the bigger picture and I’m not going to go back to the client for a $500 niche and then be like, well, it wasn’t in the quote and then it’s, you know, can turn into something that it doesn’t have to be for something that really isn’t going to cost us a lot of money. Let’s just, you know, get it done and do it and move forward.

• Aleem

10:37

So absolutely.

• Jennifer Lee

10:38

And sometimes I think the listeners wonder how do the builder and interior designer get together? Sometimes they just meet on the job or maybe they even have a cute meet cute. Did you guys have anything interesting or did you just meet on a job and it’s a boring story.

• Dave

10:51

I remember when I first met a lame you know he’s pretty memorable guy to meet for the first time Steve knew him from a nut through his contractor previous contractor and Steve was like oh man this guy Liam you’re going to meet him like he’s amazing he’s awesome and I was like and he’s like he’s out there and I was like you know this is what the way Steve put it back then this is introverted old-school Irish sort of mumbles when he talks you know to me Yeah, I just remember speaking as he got out of his I think it was a Jag he was driving at the time. Maybe and then you actually had a blonde full mohawk though and then the bag on the arm and everything and I was like, this guy is amazing. I was almost in awe. We just got him over to do one of our first, we were still employed at the time and we were starting to do side work as Tall Tree, before Tall Tree was even a thing, just to try and build up a bit of a rep, after hours work, side work and stuff like that. So yeah, he helped us with some renderings on that job, and that was the first time I remember meeting him.

• Jennifer Lee

12:05

And what was your impression of Dave? Give us the answer.

• Aleem

12:08

I think it was interesting. Actually, I didn’t pin Steve and him being partners, or what his partner would be like, I guess. But I guess I should have taken a cue from my own book because Phyllis and I are pretty opposite. We’re pretty much opposites, and I find that that’s always what works and complements in any relationship, business, or personal. So, they were kind of perfect as well. Dave was the outgoing person like Dave said. Steve was the more introverted person. So, it was nice to kind of have that combination and see them together.

• Aleem

12:36

And of course, I made the joke, I think I called Dave a Kiwi when I first met him. And I’m still here to tell the tale. So yeah, so and then of course, you know, followed in suit the jokes of, you know, an Irishman and an Aussie, you know, meet at a bar type of thing, right? So, but no, it’s been, you know, history ever since then. I can’t imagine how many projects we’ve worked on in that last decade, but you know, hundreds.

Jennifer Lee

So, wow. And I’ve always had a question for you, Dave, why Tall Tree? Like, what’s the name? What does it mean to you?

Dave

It’s funny, because we thought of it at the pub, me and Steve was sitting there like, we need, you know, this is back when Steve still drank, he doesn’t drink much anymore.

• Mike

13:17

Is that how you met?

• JL

13:18

Steve was in a pub.

• Dave

13:19

No, I actually met him on a building site. Yeah, my first ever job in Canada, he was the lead hand and I got partnered with him, so that’s how we, but yeah, we were, we sat at the pub and we were just thinking of names and we were like, obviously, you know, we’re on the West Coast and we were just sort of sitting on, used to be called the Five Point on Main Street and we’re throwing out names and it was like names that, in construction, you always think, when I open a company what am I going to call it and we put those names forward and they were a bit dated by then so then we came up with Tall Tree and we just asked the barman when he came around, he was like, hey what do you think of Tall Tree Construction? He’s like, yeah dude, it’s like really west coast, I love it. You know, and I was like, alright, there it is and like it’s sort of come back to bite us in the butt a bit because me saying Tall Tree over the phone to people like Paul tree and then yeah we get Paul Tree all the time. Paul Tree Construction and like just Steve with his thick Dub accent you know he struggles as well so we left to go tile tree you know when we’re saying stuff over the phone especially over the phone.

• Mike

14:21

So yeah so, I feel like we go to break we’re going to say we’ll be back with Aleem and Paul from Paltry.

• Jennifer Lee

14:27

Maybe you should just switch it into Paul.

• Dave

14:29

I know, but now we have a Paul working for us, so we call it funny. So now we call him Paltry.

• JL

14:33

Paltry, oh my God.

• Aleem

14:35

Paltry.

• Dave

14:36

Yeah.

• Aleem

14:37

Too funny.

Dave

Yeah, so that’s pretty much where the name came from.

• Mike

14:40

You know, we’re just getting into this, and this always happens. We just are getting into it, and then we have to take just a few minutes to thank our sponsors. So, we’ll be back with Aleem and Paul from Tall Tree Construction in just a few moments.

• JL

14:53

That’s a new name now.

• Jennifer Lee

14:54

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• Mike

16:22

All right, we are back, and you know, while we had our break, I was thinking about how well the both of you work together. And I was also thinking about three weeks ago, I was on a job site where the builder and the designer were not working well together. And that sounds like a reality TV show. Yeah, maybe but like for somebody who’s hired both of these people and is sort of stuck in the middle, it can be a really challenging situation, especially if you don’t understand this industry. So how do you find that winning balance? I mean obviously you two have found that synergy and that balance, but as a homeowner what should I be looking for to find that balance to make sure everybody’s working together and this is the most important part, they’re collaborating for my benefit.

• Aleem

17:03

Absolutely, I think it kind of comes, it’s a well it can be a double-edged sword, but it kind of comes from a couple perspectives. From the consumer and homeowner standpoint, it is obviously very beneficial to have a designer and a contracting team that works simultaneously and wonderful together, but that always isn’t the case, like you kind of mentioned. So, I think it’s kind of bridging the gap and trying to remind everyone that we’re working towards a common goal, and the common goal is the project and the consumer, the homeowner. But I think, you know, again, it kind of comes back to what we were kind of talking about earlier, as well with, you know, Tall Tree and Kalu Interiors and Dave and myself, and again, even with Steve and Phyllis, it’s being able to kind of finish each other’s sentences, have mutual respect for one another, understanding what the project and the client needs are. So, once you kind of have a grasp of those items, you’re able to kind of tackle them more efficiently, I guess. And I think it’s also putting egos aside because some builders and interior designers, they just want to be the main dog on the project yeah that’s not how a home is built no absolutely it’s one of those things where I think it’s always rings true to many chefs in the kitchen type of thing so I think it’s always important to ensure that everyone kind of you know stays in their lane and understands what their purpose and goal is for the project and be able to kind of work together some symbiotically because the thing is I’d love to tell those people that are like that.

• Jennifer Lee

18:25

It’s like if you design the most beautiful home what you do, but you have a crappy builder It’s not going to bring your vision to life. No if Dave works with somebody that is not a great interior designer, he could be the best builder on earth he’s not going to be able to make it look good. So, you really have to make sure that you guys are a team one hundred percent.

• Dave

18:46

I’m just saying and it’s hard to dance back and forth sometimes. Sometimes you work with other designers who don’t have as much skill as a Aleem, you know, or that vision. Like, you know, his designs are amazing, right? And then I get stuck where I’m like, I almost want to put my input that I’ve learned from him on design and be like, maybe you should, maybe you should sort of try this, you know, but it’s one of those things.

• Jennifer Lee

19:09

I’m sure the designers love that.

• Dave

19:11

I try to not step on anyone’s toes. Obviously, I just like put forward my thoughts maybe.

• Jennifer Lee

19:16

Actually, could you move that to the left?

• Dave

19:18

Yeah, yeah.

• Mike

19:19

Maybe you need a light fixture there.

• Jennifer Lee

19:22

You’re rubbing off on him.

• Aleem

19:23

Yeah, big time.

• Mike

19:24

But that’s what we should be expecting, right? We should be expecting our designer to learn from our builder. Because we might know a little about everything, but we know a lot about only a few things typically. And likewise, we should be expecting you to teach Dave things, Dave to teach you things, and that’s how we all get better and level up. And I think you guys have hit the nail on the head. You respect each other, you collaborate, you talked about this, Dave. If there’s a shower hitch, we’re just going to do it. Why would we throw the poor guy under the bus?

• 5

19:51

Just let the problem go away.

• Mike

19:53

So, I think this is what you guys have created, is what someone who’s watching this or listening to this should be expecting. And I think maybe one of the questions we should be asking the team we’re hiring from our house is, can you guys work together?

• Aleem

20:03

Yeah, absolutely. How are you going to work together? Totally. I think it’s also research-based as well, right? So I always say, I mean, again, not to say either which way is the right way, but I usually do recommend that clients do engage a designer first because then they have a very strong understanding, a scope of work, what the design plans are, and rather than kind of reverse engineer the project. So, once they can kind of come up with a DNA for the project, a design, a concept, then it’s a lot easier to put the trade team into place from there and have a better understanding of how to pull those people together.

• Mike

20:37

As you’re building those relationships, how do you determine who stays in which lane? Is it a predetermined conversation? Is it like a tag team where you just know each other?

• JL

20:46

He’s the big dog.

• Dave

20:47

He has the fun and say.

• JL

20:49

He has a little fun.

• Mike

20:50

But I mean, in a broad general sense, right? Both of you are experts in your own field. So, we’re kind of relying on both of you going, how do you define those lanes? Like imagine you’d never worked with each other before you didn’t have that pre-lease. How would you have that conversation? Would you have that conversation?

• Dave

21:04

Yeah, I mean, I guess sometimes it would come down to maybe if the client bought me on first and was like, I had the relationship with the client and then the designer came in, maybe I would feel that maybe I have more of a say, whereas if Aleem comes with the whole design and the package and they have a relationship with the client and I’m coming in more as a second person, as a contractor in a way, then I would be like, okay, he has more of a say sort of thing, to a point.

• Aleem

21:30

Yeah, it’s a little give and take. I think on most of the projects though, what we tend to really love is, and kind of what I was saying is, if the client is engaged as first and we’re able to kind of work on that entire design process, get that DNA of the project kind of formulated, for me that’s always the best scenario because then we can bring on the contracting team like Dave and Steve and just kind of let them hit the pavement running. We’ve developed that relationship with the client, we’ve built up the design package, let’s call it you know for a month or a couple months, get their team on board, we collaborate you know for this next couple weeks as far as procuring product, getting site visits oriented. And once they start the work, I love being hands-off, stepping away, leaving them to do their work as professionals. And like Dave said, rather than having to incur or disturb the client on small things, they can come back to us, or they might even just intuitively know what they need to do. I think a really good example is I was traveling in Europe in August, and one of the projects that we’re doing in Yaletown there was a baseboard detail. I can’t wait to share this project it’s going to be really fantastic. Definitely lots of awards on this one I hope but it was it was an interesting detail again we’re not going to necessarily think of every detail you know completely because you won’t really know until it’s in the in the flesh I guess and Dave and Steve are also kind of collaborating on this project because Steve had some travel around the same time, but this was a project that Steve was managing. And while away, Dave, you know, he did eventually reach out and said, hey, Aleem, I just kind of want to confirm that this is the baseboard detail you wanted along this corridor. It’s, you know, I don’t know, it’s probably like 20 feet and, you know, 14-foot-tall ceilings. We have a full wallpaper detail and beautiful seamless doors. So, it was really important to kind of hit this detail on the nail on the head, I guess. And Dave did double check and there was one thing we didn’t consider, and it was the flush door application. If we had an MDF molding or a baseboard that stuck out, it wouldn’t be able to open and close the way that we had this flush mechanism operating.

• Aleem

23:28

So, we came up with a solution. Dave did a mock-up. We’re doing this over WhatsApp while I’m in Europe and came back and there was a solution.

• Jennifer Lee

23:35

That’s why, again, you need to work with the proper people because Dave, because he’s an experienced builder, was able to foresee, like, I’m going to ask about this first before moving forward. Because some people move forward and then all of a sudden, the designer comes back, the client comes back, and they’re like, oh my god, what happened? And then they’re ripping everything out and it’s more costly.

• Aleem

23:52

Correct.

• Dave

23:53

Well, yeah, Steve had actually told me how he wanted it done and I was like, I thought it wasn’t going to look as good, and it wasn’t sorted with the drawings. Like, Steve was away for a wedding in Italy and so I sort of took over the project for two weeks and then I was like, I don’t think Aleem would like this little shoe molding instead of the tall baseboard and blah, blah, blah. I probably spent half a day just trying to figure it out before I made the call to either Steve or Aleem an then realized it was sort of snowballing effect of if we did this, this wasn’t going to work, this wasn’t going to work. So, I eventually had to reach out to a lane, but we got it done in the end.

• Aleem

24:30

Hey, it’s easier to fix things before you do them. Yeah, it was worth the time investment up front. And that was why I used that particularly as an example, because like Dave said, it took, a lot of contractors aren’t going to spend that time and that work and that effort up front. They’ll rather just get it done and then move forward just to get the project done, right? To check something off the box. But in this case, it was worth that extra time and effort because it probably would have saved, or it could potentially have cost thousands of dollars to remediate Because the wallpaper was on. Yeah, exactly sure and speaking of that you’ve got.

• Jennifer Lee

25:01

So many great designs not just with all the homes that you’ve been doing, but you’ve been designing clothes for your wedding IDS West you had I think a clothes booth you had a chair that you designed, you had also a collaboration with another Haven member, Stone Dillon from there. And yeah, tell us a little bit of some of the trends that you’re seeing because, like I said, I feel like you had them all on display for IDS West.

• Aleem

25:32

It’s funny how that actually happened because this year at IDS, earlier in the year, we had really only committed to James Crossing for their booth, which was the chairs that you mentioned, which were in donation for the Covenant House for the charity. And then of course, then Pacific Stone came to the table and that was actually a project we collaborated with Dave and Steve on from Tall Tree. They built our booth.

• Aleem

25:52

And then LaSalle College reached out. And so, these are all very last-minute things. And then next thing you know, we’re doing half the show. But it was exciting. It was definitely a challenge, but fun. But as far as trends, I mean, I think we’re starting to see, we’re continuing to see a lot of trends just going bigger scale.

• Aleem

26:07

So, one of the things that I’ve definitely noticed is graphics and technology. We’re seeing a lot larger kind of like larger scale and format graphics. So, whether it be patterns, digital imaging, reproductions of natural materials, compact surfaces continue to be a huge trend and kind of navigating away from, I guess, complete natural materials and stones, even though people want natural textures and materials. So, kind of emulating those.

• Aleem

26:35

I just saw some beautiful reproductions in Italy in a recent design trip for large format slabs, which I could not tell that they were synthetic versus, again, natural marbles. One of the great trends that I’m also seeing, which I’ve been asking our suppliers and manufacturers for years, are more black finishes. Again, we continue to see brass and bronze finishes, et cetera, but not a lot of black offerings. I mean, yes, matte black, absolutely. But when I say black finishes, I mean other types of black finishes. So like black mirrored finishes, black chromes, blackened steels, so a little bit more high-depth black finishes, which have been offered in Europe for a few years now so we’re starting to see those come through and again just the continued upward trend in integrated appliances and plumbing fixtures so hidden sinks integrated sinks integrated appliances people want their spaces like their kitchens and bathrooms not necessarily to look like their kitchens and bathrooms multi-purpose and multi-use spaces.

Mike

27:40

Okay so design trends that’s one part of it. Construction trends, that’s another part of it. Rather than getting into specifics of construction trends, because I think most of our viewers and our listeners are aware of the shifting sands, how, as a team, do you balance designing trends and building trends so that everybody meets in the middle and gets what they want?

• Dave

27:59

Yeah, I mean, it can be hard. I guess a small example, say if we’re ripping off some drywall and it’s on an exterior wall, I’m like, hey, even though it’s not really shown on the drawings, I say we should beef this wall up to increase the R value. And then you sort of play that game of, I mean, it’s like, well, now there’s not going to be enough room for the dining room table, chair to get back properly.

Or now it’s going to push my light off center, which is going to do this. And then the client’s like, well, I don’t want to lose three inches of space inside my living room. And I’m like, yeah, but while you’re there, you should really, you have like R10 in your wall, you should be getting your R value up quite a lot more. So those are some of the things, and I can only suggest them to the client. I’ll tell them this is what I think as a builder.

And then it’s really up to them whether they want to lose some space in the room. And that’s sort of one of the things that we come across quite a bit.

• Aleem

28:52

Yeah, the reverse engineering of a project, I’d say. We come in, I think, again, one of the great things that we try to do as a studio and design firm is when we’re creating, again, that DNA, that design plans and those design drawings for the contractor and for the clients, we never go into a project thinking, okay, this is the Holy Bible, it cannot change. We always go in with the thought process that this is something that is movable, it’s workable, it’s something that’s tangent that we can continue to kind of collaborate on and with. It’s never perfect from day one, so it kind of becomes a back and forth, a tennis game process. And of course, Dave and Steve will come back to us and say things that are realistic or might not be unrealistic, or sometimes it comes to budgetary things or efficient items like Dave mentioned as far as our values, et cetera, and then we just kind of reverse engineer from there.

• Dave

29:35

Yeah, I think sometimes we like, because we have such a good relationship with Kalu, you know, Aleem can even lean on us a bit and say, hey, like, do you think this wall can be removed or do you think this plumbing stack could be moved so we could put the bathroom over here? And even if we haven’t signed on with the client, you know, sometimes we’ll sneak over there and just to help them out, sort of, you know, I need their expertise sometimes, sometimes they need mine. So that’s the sort of cool thing about having, you know, this collaboration that we do, that we can sort of lean on each other for those things. He might not even tell the client that he was sending me videos of the place, and then Aleem can look and go, yeah, that wall can come down.

• Jennifer Lee

30:17

I feel that your impression of Aleem is spot on, by the way. You guys know each other too well. You have to hear Dave one before you go there. But with trends though, do you guys ever worry that, because I was actually talking to interior designers about this, they said the thing is by the time the magazines come out and everybody then wants those trends, they’ve been done already for a few years prior.

• Jennifer Lee

30:44

How do you basically talk to a client, make sure too that the trend is something that’s going to last more than a few years, because if they’re to live in the house for a long time, I’m sure that there’s some stuff that we do now that we didn’t do a few years ago.

• Aleem

30:57

Yeah, I mean, that’s always a balancing act, particularly through our design process. I know a lot of designers will also say this as well, but we honestly aren’t that in-tuned to the trends. Of course, we’re seeing trends consciously and subconsciously, whether it be through magazines or Instagram or obviously just the connectivity of social media these days, but we really focus solely and as much as we can on the client, the property and their needs.

• Aleem

31:24

I always ask, the first question I ask a client is how long are you going to be in the space? To me that’s the most important question because the priorities are going to change if they’re there for a year versus 10 years. So that’s the first and foremost. And then I also want to know what their plans are. Are they planning to grow a family or are they planning to not grow a family? And it’s just for them. Resale value, I always consider that. The architecture of the space, we never want to necessarily have the psychotomy of an exterior architecture that completely does not match the interior. So, we try to, again, pay honour and respect to that as well. So yeah, we try as much as possible to focus on those things and not necessarily so much the trends. And when you focus on those things, you ensure that you have longevity in the space.

• Mike

32:06

Well, the one thing I’ve learned over these last few years is that the best designers aren’t following other people’s designs to create their own. They are groundbreaking and trailblazing on their own. One thing we haven’t really talked about, and I think we need to talk about more, is that delicate balance between health and safety and design, because we know the things that keep us healthy and safe in our house are the things that allow us to live and age in our house aren’t necessarily congruent with some of the design principles you may bring to bear. How do you create that balance so you’re creating a healthy house, a livable house, but also a house that reflects your vision as well as your vision and what the client wants.

• Dave

32:49

Yeah, I mean it can be a bit of a balancing act, especially for a budget. I can say to a client, hey, maybe you want to look at heat pumps or energy efficient windows and doors or upping the R value like we just talked about. And then a lien could say, a heat pump can be 50 grand to do a whole house, right? So, and then that might take away the client’s like, well, I don’t have 50 grand. I said, well, maybe don’t get the $10,000 chandelier just yet.

And then I get a kick in the back from him.

• Mike

33:18

So just when you said that, by the way, the look on your face, it was like more than any words ever could have.

• Jennifer Lee

33:26

How do you not tell me not to have the chandelier?

• Mike

33:29

That’s what daggers look like.

• Dave

33:30

I did it once with a client, and he was a bit pissed at me. He said, don’t do that again.

• Jennifer Lee

33:36

You always go with the chandelier as the correct answer.

• Aleem

33:39

They do, they do.

• Dave

33:40

So, I never win.

• Aleem

33:41

You never win.

• Dave

33:42

No, I never win.

• Aleem

33:43

No, but I think Dave is right. It is really important to look at those kinds of systems and those health and safety aspects that you’ve mentioned because it does make something more livable and more longevity for a home and for a consumer.

• Mike

33:54

We learned a lot today. And some of the things that I think really stood out were first of all, find a team who can work together and work well together, who respect each other, who play off each other, and who collaborate for the success of the homeowner.

We talked about elements of award-winning designs. We talked about design trends like bigger and bolder, but also how to balance them with building trends. So just a phenomenal conversation as always, and just so grateful both of you could take some time to share this with us today.

• Aleem

34:19

Awesome.

• Dave

34:20

Thanks so much, Mike.

• Jennifer Lee

34:21

Thank you so much. Yeah, you’re not off the hook yet. I think we have one more question, but it’s true, teamwork is such an important thing and also your partners need praise too, Phyllis and Stephen, because they’re both lovely people as well. And I know the four of you guys are not only great partiers, you’re also great at making people’s dream homes come true.

One thing before we go though, we need one little piece, I don’t know what that meant. One little more tip is what I was trying to say of wisdom from you guys. You guys have given us so much wisdom today, but one tip to give the homeowner before we go.

Each of you.

• Dave

34:57

My tip, just be patient.

• JL

35:00

Be patient with him or with a patient client?

• Dave

35:02

Both. Great things take time to come, right, to build. So, you know, a lot of clients will, it was seen that a lot of clients can be on the back foot before we already get in the door. They have the horror stories of bad contractors and stuff. So, you know, honesty and patience is a big thing. I try and say, if you have a thought, let me know.

Let’s talk it through. You know, if their budget’s moving in the wrong direction or you need more time, you know, have that conversation as soon as it comes up and don’t try and hide it.

• Aleem

35:32

So, and just, yeah, be patient with overall all project because it takes time. Absolutely. I guess for me, I always first and foremost tell clients scale and prioritize. Even though, again, as a designer, I’d love to have the $10,000 chandelier in the future. There are certain things that you just can’t easily do once a construction job is done. I never want to see people in hardship or in scenarios where it’s difficult to backtrack. I always recommend, again, prioritize. You start with the, let’s call it the building brains or the structure. So that’s you know your roof, your windows, if you want to add an HVAC system, all of those things that you would work closely with your contractor like Dave and Steve on, those are really the important elements. And then you kind of work your way down from there. Then it would go to you know your millwork, your countertops, things again that aren’t going to be easily changed further down the road. And then I tell clients to hold off on other things if you need to focus your budget to those primary items. So, you know, your sofa can wait, your $10,000 chandelier can wait. Put those as kind of pipeline dreams or things that you budget and save for over the years.

• Jennifer Lee

36:39

But let’s be honest, you can always get a smaller chandelier.

• Aleem

36:41

But should you?

• JL

36:43

Yeah.

• Aleem

36:44

Don’t compromise.

• Mike

36:46

Well, it’s, as always, phenomenal conversation. Before we go, I just want to do my favorite part of the show usually which is let’s imagine this let’s imagine these two gentlemen and their teams have designed an amazing space have built an amazing space and you’ve just moved in and then you get to the backyard like now what you probably need a barbeque and we’re going to help you with that so all you have to do is like or share this episode you have a chance to win a Napoleon prestige p500 stainless steel natural gas barbeque valued at $1,600 compliments of our podcast partner FortisBC. Details are available at www.havan.ca/measuretwicecutonce. Do you have a barbeque on your rooftop?

• Aleem

37:22

Not yet. Oh no we do, our old one. Oh, you might need a new one. We will need a new one. I just want several.

JL

Yeah several. Mike has 12. No, not joking. No, no, just know that’s over the top and excessive.

• Mike

37:33

Only 11. For sure. Don’t make me look like I’m a pro. Thank you guys so much for coming in today.

• Aleem

37:39

Thank you.

• Jennifer Lee

37:40

Thanks for having us. And for notes and links to everything mentioned on today’s episode, including resources shared by Liam and Dave, go to www.havan.ca/measuretwicecutonce . Thank you to Trail Appliances, FortisBC, BC Housing, Rami Films, Jpod Creations, and AI Technology and Design. It takes a team to build a home, as it does to build a podcast.

• Jennifer Lee

38:01

Thank you so much for joining us. See you next week. See you next week.

• Mike

38:04

See you next week, Jennifer.