Bryn Davidson of LaneFab Design/Build has been building in the small-housing, multi-family space for over a decade. Tune in and learn what Bryn has to say about Bill44 and the new Small Scale Multi-Unit Housing (SSMUH).
Listen to “Ep 65: 6 Homes. 1 Lot.” on Spreaker.
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About the Speaker
Bryn Davidson, LaneFab Design/Build
Lanefab is an integrated design/build company that crafts custom homes, duplexes and multiplexes with design quality & energy efficiency as core values. Our award winning work has been featured in numerous design magazines and books, including Dwell, Western Living, and the New York Times.
Our projects are all unique; they are built for a specific site and client, and are consistently rated among Canada’s most energy efficient. We specialize in Passivhaus (Passive House) and Net Zero construction with 15+ years of experience.
Our team can provide full design and construction services – working with you from the first sketches to the final finishes. We can navigate the zoning and permitting process for you, and can provide a construction contract with clearly defined materials, methods and costs.
The design team is led by LEED accredited designer Bryn Davidson (left), and the construction crew is led by project manager Mat Turner (right).
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Check out photos of the project!
Here's the Full Transcript of this Episode, including resources mentioned by Bryn.
Resources:
Bill 44 Small-Scale Multi-Unit Housing (SSMUH) – Province of BC
Small-scale, multi-unit housing describes a range of buildings and housing units that can provide attainable housing for middle-income families. Examples of small-scale, multi-unit housing include:
- Secondary suites in single-family dwellings
- Detached accessory dwelling units (ADUs), like garden suites or laneway homes
- Triplexes
- Townhomes
- House-plexes
Zoning bylaw changes permitting small-scale multi-unit housing in Burnaby
City of Vancouver – Build a Multiplex Development
MTCO EP 65 – TRANSCRIPT
Jennifer Lee: Hey Mike, it’s great to see you again. Another episode of HAVAN’s podcast Measure Twice, Cut Once.
0:08
Mike: Jennifer Lee, always fantastic to be back in the studio. I’m really excited about today’s episode because as you know I’ve been working on designing a multi-density home for my own property. So, this is going to be a really interesting conversation with someone who is absolutely a leader in this space.
0:24
Jennifer Lee: Yeah, we have Bryn Davidson. He is a home designer at Lane Fab Design Build. And I have a really important question to start it off. Was it true that you are the first person to build a laneway in Vancouver?
0:39
Bryn: Legally. Yeah. In 2010 on Mother’s Day, we had an open house for our first laneway house. It was the first laneway house in Vancouver to get its occupancy permit.
0:52
Jennifer Lee: Wow. Are you the lane father then?
0:54
Bryn: I guess you could say that. I got a question before we go too far off that topic.
0:58
Mike: The housing situation we have is quite a bit different now than it was back then. Did you have any semblance as you were starting down this path back then that it would be part of a solution to a problem? Like, did you see this problem emerging down the way or is this just something you adapting at the time and then it works really well to today’s conditions?
1:20
Bryn: Yeah, I mean, I think Vancouver’s had a housing shortage going back for a long time. And for many years, people with the laneway houses were like, why can’t we do something with this space in the backyard? So, there was talk and talk and talk.
1:34
For myself, in 2008, I was just designing houses, working by myself. And then the global financial crisis came. And in the span of a couple of months, all the work just evaporated. So early 2009 I started talking to my business partner who’s a builder. And this was the same time the city was talking about bringing on these new laneway houses. So, it was sort of this, we needed to create something new, the city was doing something new, and so we came together and branded the company around this new type of housing that the city created just by, you know, with a stroke of a pen. All of a sudden you went from zero to 60,000 properties that could have these new type of houses.
2:16
Jennifer Lee: Wow, so you are the lane father. I’m going to credit you for at least in Vancouver.
2:20
Bryn: Well, there’s a lot of people working to bring that together and other companies doing it, but yeah, we were definitely there at the beginning.
2:27
Jennifer Lee: Perfect. And have you always been a home designer then?
2:30
Bryn: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, my first degree was in engineering. I worked as an engineer in Alaska, and then I wanted to do something more creative and environmental, so I moved here for architecture school. And while I was finishing my architecture school, I started designing a house for a friend, and when I graduated, I just kept that going. So, I just went straight into designing houses on my own and have just kept that going since then.
Mike: And have you been focusing on a certain type of housing? I mean obviously laneways and solving our density but as far as methodology of how you design those houses in terms of energy efficiency or anything else like that, is there a specific type of house you like to design?
3:14
Bryn: Yeah, I mean, I’ve always been interested in kind of green building and projects that have a light environmental footprint. So, from the very beginning, we wanted to create a company that would not do that once in a while but do that on every single project.
3:30
Bryn: So, we were also interested in small spaces, interested in prefab, interested in all these kind of systems. And so, in creating a design and build company, we could do the whole thing as a kind of one-stop shop and do it exactly the way that we wanted to do it.
3:47
Bryn: So, you know, we’ve always been trying to push the boundaries. Sometimes I call it being on the bleeding edge because you’re banging your head against the bureaucracy or trying to convince people to try something new. Well, that’s one of my favorite terms, the two extra points just for that bonus. You also create good slogans and not just Lane homes to slogans. Yeah, I spend too much time on Twitter there.
4:09
Bryn: You’re also award-winning your work has been award-winning featured in numerous design magazines and books including dwell Western Living and the New York Times How do you get in the New York Times just asking for a friend? Huh?
4:21
Bryn: Yeah, that came about, I mean, in part that was because the Laneway House thing at that time was quite new and very newsworthy. But at that time, there was a writer who had written about infill or something like that. And so, I approached them and said, you know, hey, I saw you were writing about this thing in Oregon or wherever. If you ever want to talk about what Vancouver is doing, they’ve done this citywide. Like this is a big thing. And so, six months later they were like, hey let’s talk about this. And then six months after that, they’re like, we’re going to run it. And we ended up with a full page spread in the New York Times with like all these photos and everything.
5:05
Jennifer Lee: Wow, that’s amazing. You’re a good person to know. Laneways, Twitter, Expert, New York Times.
5:16
Bryn: Yeah, it was, it was, that was a good moment and we’ve been able to, I don’t know, my, some companies put a lot of money into advertising. I always say that we like to put our extra money into trying to do interesting things and then have people write about it.
5:34
Bryn: So that’s, that’s always been the approach. Speaking of interesting things, these houses that you’re creating, is there like a formula that you follow to create a laneway house or is it something that’s customized with each person you work with? Our projects are all custom. There are some companies that try to do a more repeatable and they you know they’ll do way more than we do, but ours are all very specific to a client, to their property, what they want to do. I have my own interests. I really love bringing together kind of West Coast modernism, Scandinavian design, traditional Japanese design,
and then all of this learning about energy efficient buildings, you know, thick walls, sort of bringing that all together. So that’s sort of our particular flavor, but everything that we do is unique, like a custom fitted suit for that client.
6:28
Jennifer Lee: And you also have a great team, we kind of alluded to it before, and you have a great project manager named Matt Turner. Can you give the dirt on him?
6:35
Bryn: Yeah, Matt’s a carpenter, a master carpenter, a red seal carpenter, and we met because he was one of the only guys in town doing prefab construction in 2008. And so, I talked to the prefab company and they’re like, oh, go talk to this guy. So yeah, over the years, you know, we’re sometimes, you know, like an old married couple sometimes.
Sometimes, but we’ve, you know, we’ve been able to do a lot of things together over the years. So, if you’re like an old married couple,
7:05
Jennifer Lee: you probably do have the dirt on him then.
7:07
Bryn: Oh, well, I won’t say anything. Yeah.
7:11
Mike: And I think this is something that a lot of people talk about and maybe we need to talk about more is when you live in an urban environment as we do there are two really big considerations. One is air quality both from you know pollutants from our vehicles and forest fires and all the industrial things that happen, and the other is sound noise pollution and that interferes with a lot of things in our lives. Can you talk about both of those how they relate to how you design and create spaces and why people thinking about any sort of project should be paying attention to those things in particular.
7:44
Bryn: Yeah, for sure. I mean years ago came up with a tagline thick walls are sexy which was basically just trying to get at the idea that you know, there’s if you do something that’s super insulated, you know, that’s great for the environment, but it’s also it’s about a home that feels different. And so, the quietness, when we do a triple glazed window in that thick wall, it makes a big difference in terms of your quality of life.
8:15
We’re also doing, a lot of what we do has been drawing on a way of building that originated in Germany or really grew up in Germany called Passive House, which is about creating a very good building envelope, but also very good air quality using an air exchanger. And we’re finding this is especially important as we’re dealing with, you know, emerging a changing climate. So, you know, when we started 15 years ago, we weren’t dealing with smoke every summer. But now, we design our houses with the idea that maybe August is just smoke season. And there are many times where the air outside is not that great. So, we are we’re kind of designing these buildings to be sort of future-proof in a way because they’re going to be there for a long time.
9:01
Mike: Well, I’m glad you said that as well because there’s a misconception amongst people that they live in a new home and therefore the indoor air quality is high. Reality is a lot of that smoke in particular gets trapped in there and actually concentrates in there. So, the fact that you’re actively thinking about those things is really, really important and should be commended. And for people who are watching and listening to this, if you take nothing else, that part right there is really, really important to our long-term health and how we live.
9:27
JL: And I’m also taking thick walls are sexy because I love that.
9:31
I think that’s our slogan for next season.
9:38
Mike: Bringing them back and a lot of things are changing, especially here in Vancouver. We have new multi-family building legislation, and I know you’re a big advocate of this and I actually saw you on the news last week supporting some of the changes. Can you tell us a little bit more about the insights into the new legislation that’s coming up?
9:56
Well, there’s been so much that’s happened in the last year, like it’s kind of crazy. I always have a rolling kind of wish list of policy changes that I’m fighting for. And in the last year, a lot of those things have been coming together. So, one of the big ones is just allowing things like laneway houses and fourplexes across the whole province, which is humongous. The other is this recent code change, which allows for a small apartment building to be built around a single stair, which doesn’t sound that profound, but what it does is it unlocks a whole different suite of design solutions that can let you make a much better building, especially on a small lot. So, if you look in Europe, you look in Asia, you look anywhere else in the world, those single stair apartment buildings are literally the backbone building block of those cities. So, this is, it’s an exciting time, but there’s also a lot of a lot of change.
10:52
JL: It’s true like I was just in Europe and it’s funny because you don’t think about Staircases until you start talking about but a lot of them only do have one and then you come here and there there’s so many options for stairs in a lot of the buildings.
Bryn: Yeah, and a lot of times, you know these older even in Vancouver we have some examples of you know older buildings like the Dominion building downtown. Amazing triangular staircase in the middle, you have one beautiful, amazing stair. Now, you know, for the last however long, we do these long like hotel-style hallways with this little concrete kind of crappy stair and you don’t want to be there, you don’t want to hang out, you know, it’s just there for emergencies. So, I think there is an opportunity for that stair to be a beautiful central part of the building again.
JL: Yeah I never thought about that actually because when you do go into some other building you’re like wow this staircase is gorgeous and then you go into other buildings you’re like I don’t want it you’re hoping the elevator doesn’t go down because you’re like I don’t want to take the stairs you feel like you’re like in a prison like you’re going through.
Bryn: Yeah, it’s just some concrete thing windowless it’s just like awful so you know I think I think it does create some new opportunities. One of the things I’m really excited about is the perspective you’re sharing. Because in North America, we have been sort of on this mentality for the last 100, 150 years. This is how you design a street. This is how you design a community. This is how you design a home. And the reality is, is we’re very new to the game relative to the rest of the world and may not be the best way.
12:20
Mike: So, you’re bringing all these new ideas and new thought processes in and introducing that to people who may not have had that other perspective otherwise. I want to ask you a question and that’s, we’re in a society where governments change, leadership roles change, like these things change all the time. If there was a big enough change that you were suddenly our premier, what is it you would do as far as your prerogative on designing houses to fix our housing crisis. In other words, we’re talking about this new legislation, which is awesome, what would you do next to build on top of it?
12:57
Bryn: Well, I think everything that’s been happening is great, but it needs to go further. So, we need, if you look around the world, like the background of a sustainable, walkable city is this kind of three to eight story, small apartment building that really is the kind of the building block. So, making that happen, and if we do it with a single stair, then you can do that where you also keep green space. Because we need to figure out, you know, this combination of green space, beautiful trees, with higher density housing on quiet streets, like that’s the magic, you know, in terms of sustainable urbanism. Whereas in North America, for the longest time, what we’ve done is we’ve tried to keep all the quiet streets as single family, and then we piled all the density onto the noisy, dirty, polluted corridors. You know, you look around all of North America, Vancouver, everywhere, you have these corridor, you put all the lower income people, all the renters, the young people, you just pile them onto where the pollution is in order to protect the single-family experience for this subset of the population.
14:07
JL: I would vote for you, and I feel like your slogan should be thick walls or sexy if you run for premier.
14:13
Bryn: Yeah, oh my god. I the last thing I want to be is a politician. That’s I’m passionate about these issues, but they have a hard job.
14:19
Politicians are going to watch this, and they do and so your insight is really important because this is where they get their perspective from is people who know what they’re doing.
14:29
JL: And that’s the thing. But another thing that I think, legislation’s great and pushing for that, it’s getting all of our mindsets shifted too. Because in North America, like you said, I think a lot of people still want a home. And I know a lot of people my age are like, I don’t want to live in a condo. Like everyone has a bad taste about condos. And they’re like, I want my own home. I don’t care about anyone else; I want to have this. And you hear this all the time because people don’t want to be put in multi-density. I do. I think I go to Europe, and I was like, I’m okay with this, it’s fine, I like the walkable. But how do you change people’s thoughts about this whole idea of having a house, a white picket fence, a yard?
15:07
Bryn: Yeah, it’s baked into so many of, at least the people making decisions, the people in city councils, the people who are showing up public hearings, a lot of them have grown up like I did in a single-family house with acreage and whatever else. There are many beautiful things that come with that but there are also downsides and we’re seeing that in terms of affordability, we’re seeing that in terms of the climate crisis. It’s not sustainable and so what we need is to kind of show how urban living can be beautiful and not just a downgrade. And so, I think that this kind of shift around these single-stair buildings is one of the pieces where it’s been missing because the way we do multifamily buildings, they’re very big. They only have windows at one end. They don’t have a lot of green space. They’re really not as compelling as they could be. And so that’s on us to try and show a better vision. You know, I think people do understand that a walkable neighborhood is a beautiful thing. And if you once you’ve had that experience, it can be transformative. But most people in North America have never had that experience. And so, all they see are the downsides. They don’t know how nice it is to be able to go a full week without ever getting in your car, to be able to just go to the cafe or pick up your groceries or walk to the park. It’s a wonderful experience, especially once you have kids who can go out and be on their own. They can take the bus. They have the whole city available to them in a way that they don’t if you’re trapped needing a car to do anything.
16:47
JL: It’s very true. And it’s just interesting because a lot of places are starting to get better at it. Like I was just at a beautiful condo complex in Burnaby, and they had a massive green space between the towers. It was up on top of shops, but it was neat. There was like a water feature. There was a place for the dogs. So, you actually have to go out and give the dogs a special area for the dogs to go to the bathroom. There was Adirondack chairs. There was a big barbecue, but it was like this whole, and I was like, where are we? Are we in like some like special like sky garden? But like more people need to do that because it’s like,
17:21
Bryn: I’d stay here. Yeah. And I think with the bigger projects, you can, there’s a lot that can be done. And I think Vancouver has actually done a pretty good job of showing how that’s possible. You know, you have a Home Depot instead of a big box store, it’s built into a condo tower. Like Vancouver has done a pretty good job of showing how to take some of these things and make an urban version of them that is more about being livable but now I think what the big piece for me is looking at how does this percolate out into the single-family neighborhoods. not just in Vancouver, but across the whole the whole not all of North America So, how do we allow some density but also allow more mixed-use? Can you have a corner store or a little bike shop or, you know, all these kind of basic things? Because we’ve segregated everything so much and we’ve just said all you can do – the government comes in and says all you can do is a single-family house.
18:15
And it’s really destroyed the sort of traditional way that we had. Even in North America, we had that in the 20s. We had streetcar neighborhoods. We had mixed-use. We had transit. We had all of these things, and we tore it out.
18:27
Mike: Yeah, we all moved to the burbs in the 50s. Before we go to break, we do have to take a couple minutes to thank our awesome podcast sponsors. I just want to ask you one quick question about, we were talking about changing to how we do things and there’s obviously going to be people in certain neighborhoods who, I don’t want multi-density in my neighborhood, I don’t want things to change and there are politicians who are in certain municipalities for sure who are resistant to this change. I’m just curious what you say to those people when they say, it’s not fair, I wanted to live in a single-density dwelling and now there’s all this multi-density around me. How do you address those changes with people like that?
19:03
Bryn: Yeah, it is hard because a lot of, there are real concerns about changing character and the character of a neighborhood is really tied into people’s identity. But I think it’s also understanding, you know, we see a lot of change once people realize their kids don’t have a place to live or they’re going to have to travel hours to visit their grandkids. Once it becomes personal like that, then all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, well, maybe we should have more housing options. It’s incumbent to realize that our transient indignation shouldn’t be the primary driver of city design. When we looked at laneway houses, in the beginning there was a lot of uproar, people talking about how they were going to destroy their community, in tears at the city council hearings talking about how these were going to destroy the community. Five years later, they’re like, no big deal. It’s just a normal thing. And so, we find with a lot of these changes, there’s this spike of anxiety and then it becomes normal. And the problem is that too often we heavily weight that spike of anxiety in our decision making. And so, we need to, you know, if you’re a city councilor or an urban planner in particular, you’ve got to balance those things and not be so swayed by this vocal subset of people who are opposing.
20:27
JL: I also, again, I think we have to shift our mindset kind of what Mike said too, is just that we can’t look down upon living in townhouses, duplexes, condos, laneways, and I think there’s still a bit of stigma where people are like, oh, I’m not doing so well compared to my friends because I’m living in this type of a home or whatever.
20:47
Bryn: Yeah, and I think that’s changing in Vancouver now because a duplex is selling for almost $2 million. It’s not low-income housing anymore. So, there is a sense that that’s shifting. But yeah, I think it’s understanding or visualizing how a family can work in a different vision that’s not just a white picket fence.
21:08
Mike: Perfect, well, let’s visualize a quick break for say thank you to our awesome sponsors. We’ll be right back. We’re going to start talking a little about designing multifamily homes for single-family lots so we can talk about painting the picture for our viewers and listeners about how to make this work for them.
Bryn: Sounds good.
21:24
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22:41
Mike: All right, we are back. And now we’re going to talk a little about designing multifamily homes for a single lot. And this is especially pertinent to me because with this change in legislation we were finally able to start thinking about densifying our property where we’re at previously had to be 10,000 square feet. So, I’d love to take into account what you think I should take into account. What are some of the considerations I as a homeowner and our viewers and listeners should be thinking about if they’re looking at changing how they live or being part of this solution?
23:16
Bryn: Yeah, for sure. I think in Vancouver for 15 years, we’ve been able to have three dwellings on a property. You could have a house and a basement suite and a laneway house. But now with this change, you can have three strata units. And that’s a, looking at the building, it doesn’t look any different, but it’s a big shift in terms of each one of those units being able to own separately because it means that whether it’s your extended family or whatever you can each get your own mortgage. You can get your own credit history. You can come in and out so that’s a big difference and then in terms of once you start figuring out how to use that property together. It’s all the usual issues about where’s your outdoor space? Do you want privacy from each other, or do you want connection? Do you want to be above each other, you know, or do you want to be vertically separated? So, these are the same trade-offs we look at every single time. And there’s no right answer except that a lot of times when we’re designing for extended families, we tend to design some of the yard spaces like shared courtyards, whereas if say a laneway house or a laneway building is a renter, we might put say a balcony facing the lane so that they have their privacy and the main house yard has privacy for them. So, all of these things, you know, play into it. We’re also looking at the building systems, how do you create walls and floors that are as quiet as possible because people aren’t necessarily used to living, sharing a wall with somebody. And you know, that’s, it’s all a big part of that challenge.
25:00
JL: I was like, I feel like I’ve only ever lived sharing a wall with someone I’ve only ever lived.
25:05
Bryn: In Vancouver, it’s increasingly rare. That’s what was always beautiful about laneway houses is they were one of the few truly detached housing options in the city.
25:13
JL: Yeah, because I’ve lived in duplexes and I lived in condos and I don’t know, again, I think they’re a great way, but everyone always wants to know the cost of these things and is it cheaper because you’re kind of building a few like duplicates, but I could also see that it could be more expensive because then you are buying like extra appliances and things like that.
Bryn: Yeah, it is. You add more units, you have more kitchens, you have more bathrooms, which does add to the cost, but you are sharing the land cost. So, I think the multiplexes, this kind of missing middle, it is cheaper than a single-family house. It’s not as affordable as you’re going to get with a high-rise, like a tower. So, you have to take it for what it is in terms of affordability. It’s a vast improvement over the cost of a house, which in Vancouver, what is that, two, three, four million dollars, it’s crazy. But you’re not building 200 units and getting that economy of scale. So, it is this middle strategy, which in particular works really well for existing families redeveloping their own land.
26:24
JL: Are you concerned, though, that some of these, because like some of the family’s going to own it, but sometimes they’re going to stratify them and then sell the units off. Are you worried with the cost of these things that people are going to be selling them still at like absurd amounts of money? They’re going to sell it at market values, which maybe it’s absurd for everything. It’s not affordable.
26:45
Bryn: It’s absurd for everything, but I mean a market value at 1,500 square feet is way more affordable than trying to buy a run down like beater house for the same price where it’s an awful place to live but you’re just paying for the dirt.
27:01
JL: No, I get that, but I think people’s wish for this is they’re like, oh, well that means like they’ll be more affordable than condos and I’m like, well.
Bryn: No, I mean they’re not going to be more affordable than a condo unless you’re building it for your own family. So that was always the magic with the single lot development, and we always push the city. For the longest time, the city said, oh, if you’re going to do multifamily housing, you have to consolidate multiple lots and do a big project with an underground parkade and blah, blah, blah.
27:29
And that was a real problem because if you were an existing homeowner, you couldn’t develop on your own land. If you have to buy multiple lots, then I’ve got to go out as a developer, say, and assemble those lots at 20, 24 land values. But if you can, as a homeowner, you can do it at like 1970 land values. And so, your pro forma, your economic model is totally different. And so, if you want to build housing for your family, you can do that way more affordably than going out and buying a condo.
28:00
Mike: When you have that many people on the property, what are some of the considerations versus, like we have five people on our property, my family. If we build this project, we could have 20 to 25 people on that property. How does that change how we live together? Like, I mean, obviously waste collection, but parking, all these other things that are considerations as well. Can you talk a little about that? Because there’s probably people watching right now who have property they’ve lived in or inherited from their grandparents or any other number of situations where they want to either monetize it, densify it or simply be part of the solution. What are some of those things that we should be thinking about?
28:36
Bryn: Yeah, for sure. And a lot of like laneway houses or a lot of these projects that are a way to turn your land equity into cash flow or into housing. And so, there’s a lot of benefits there, but yeah, you are sharing this. I think in the past, the way the cities of Vancouver’s approach around parking was, was they said provide one parking space on the property and there’s two on the street and that’s three parking spaces for three units. And so, I think part of it is looking at how the public parking is part of that mix.
29:12
Also understanding that as we densify, especially in walkable neighborhoods, it is possible for people to live without a car or with using fewer cars. So, I think one of the benefits of what’s happened more recently with the laneway house and multiplex rules is they’ve done two things with parking. They took away the minimum requirement, so you don’t have to provide it, but they also made it more flexible with the design rules.
29:41
So, if you want to provide two or three parking spaces, especially now for electric cars, people want to have a place to plug in their car. And so, if you want to provide it, you can. So, I think that’s an approach that I’m generally supportive of is getting rid of these hard minimum requirements that kill projects but giving designers more flexibility to give owners what it is that they want, and they need.
30:05
JL: It’s like don’t even get me started on parking. That’s a hot button issue. Another hot button issue, which you kind of just led into it, is permits for a lot of people. Do you find with these multiplexes, is it still taking the same amount of time for permits or is it a little bit more flexible because you guys are building more units?
30:26
Bryn: It still takes us about four months to get a laneway house permit in Vancouver. It’s taking six to eight months to get a multiplex permit. That’s a development permit and building permit, which is a long time, but it’s much faster than what we would have done for multifamily housing. It’s faster than single.
30:47
JL: Sometimes it’s a year or more in Vancouver.
Bryn: Yeah, especially if you’re doing one of these character home projects, it’ll take us a year and a half, like it can be absurd. But, you know, even just, we collaborated on a passive house co-housing 12plex just up Main Street, and it took years, years of process, and it’s just absurd. So, when I go and I talk to cities, I always tell them about the mansion test, which is how easy is it to get a building permit for a mansion?
31:15
JL: It takes a long time.
Bryn: Well, but in most of these cities, it’s much, much easier. I don’t know. I’m not to start a fight, but my family is in luxury construction, and it takes a long time. Yeah, it does. And by mansion, I’m using that sort of euphemistically as a description for like a large single-family house. Okay. house, not something that’s like truly a mansion. If you go into most of these neighborhoods or cities, a single-family house, there’s usually fairly simple approval. You don’t have to get a neighbor notification. You don’t have to follow as many design guidelines. But if you try to do a laneway house or a fourplex, any of these things that are actually more attainable, more environmental, whatever, you have to jump through all of these extra hoops.
You have to like months, you know, in New Westminster if you wanted to do a laneway house you have to go through this whole notification development permit process which is just absurd. So, I always say like whatever we’re doing for single family houses should be the benchmark where it should be easier doing the housing that we truly need. No, and one of the challenges with these provincial changes which are positive in their intent is that every municipality has different rules. So, if the laneway house I design in Vancouver is different than the one I would do in Burnaby, and if I go to the District of North Vancouver, I’m lucky to even have anything happen because their rules are so terrible.
32:46
There’s just so much red tape.
32:47
I wasn’t expecting you to say that, so I got thrown off a little bit. We’re talking right now about permitting obviously, but before the permitting process begins, becomes the design process. And I’m always curious, everyone we talk to has a different way of doing it. So, imagine I want to work with you. Do I come and get a design done first and we go that way, or do we talk about the construction process that way? What drives the project?
33:11
Bryn: Yeah, I mean the design process we always go through first and then after we’ve done all the design and all the permitting, at that point we sign a construction contract and get into the build. So, in the very beginning it’s all about the design. We’re talking about construction costs, timeline, what the zoning allows in terms of density and height and square foot, all that kind of stuff. And so, and the same time I will ask you to come and bring photos of things that you like What style houses pictures rooms? Things that you love things that you hate also you’re like, oh, I can’t stand this house. That looks like this I’m like, that’s great. That’s equally useful information to answer your question. I want like a theater room with lots of speakers Oh, yeah, everybody’s yeah, they’re list like other special features that you want, the guys always want the TV room and the steam shower and all these things.
34:07
Every family is different in terms of what the key features are that they want. Some people really want that roof deck, some people want the kitchen table that can suit the whole family. So, all of those things, we take all that, we mix it in, we look at the sun, the trees, the views, and we just start drawing and kind of working through that process with you.
34:30
JL: And for your upcoming projects, are there any unique features that you’re doing for clients right now, or maybe past clients for some of your award winners?
34:38
Bryn: I mean, we’ve done various, like we did a laneway house with a jacuzzi tub in the dining room floor. Oh, wow. You know, so over the years, we’ve done some odd things. I want to go to that dining party.
34:50
Yeah, a little later. They like sous vide cooking and that was the easiest way to do it.
34:54
The easiest way to do it. You put 10 turkeys in there, you’re good to go. Was it literally inside? Yeah, it’s inside. Well, it was right in the corner and so it’s a little house. You could open the patio doors and then the little tub would be in the middle of this indoor-outdoor space. And it had a cover that went on it that was clear that you could walk on.
Oh, wow.
It was a quirky, quirky thing, but I’d say what we’re doing now, we are doing – we have several net zero duplexes and fourplexes under construction. A lot of what we’re doing now is figuring out how to do that in the best way possible, both in terms of energy performance, the low impact materials, and also just trying to bring the cost down so that it’s as competitive as possible.
35:40
Mike: I have a quick question. I mean, we’re talking about costing right now, and construction costs and design costs are two very different things. And there’s two different schools of thought. Some of the builders we’ve had in the past have said you’d want to work with the builder first. Others have a different prerogative. How closely do you work or how closely does Matt work with you as far as this process goes? Is it a very segmented process or is it a simultaneous process where you guys are collaborating at the same time and making adjustments in real time?
36:09
Yeah, we’re wholly integrated, and I think that’s one of the advantages of the design build process versus working with say just an architect or working with just a builder. When we’re doing design work, we have construction methods in mind. We are doing cost estimating early on in the project as opposed to designing the whole thing and then seeing what it’s going to cost and having to make changes. So that that integrated process then goes all the way through the build as well whereas the design team we are, you know, on-site every day looking at what’s happening.
36:41
So, does that efficiency correlate to just a faster project or less expensive project? I mean, what’s the net result of doing that that way?
36:50
Bryn: I think that it’s just a better overall process for everybody involved. There’s less conflict, less confusion. I know that we can do like a certified passive house or net zero at a lower price point than many teams out there.
37:03
We’re not cheap, low budget builders by any means, but we can do really nice buildings at an attainable price for a typical family.
JL: Well, you did say you were like an old married couple, so I’d assume that all your projects are perfect, no fights or anything.
Bryn: Oh yeah, well we have our issues like anybody, and you know, construction is a challenging business. There’s always things that are coming up. But you’re still married, business married. Yeah, still business married after 15 years. So yeah, still going ahead, and we still believe solidly in that design-build model, because it’s worked really well for us. And it lets us innovate a little bit. I’d say each of our projects, about 80% is stuff we’ve kind of done before and are very familiar with, and then about 20% we’re always trying something new. We’re trying to bring in a new design feature, a new green building feature, testing out the new zoning that just came out, so, you know, always trying to push a little bit.
38:02
Mike: You have given us a lot to think about. I think we’ve done a very deep dive in this, and I just want to say thank you very much for going through this. Things that I’m taking away are specifically about how the design build process increases efficiency and we can take what we want from that whether it’s cost or time or anything else. We talked a lot about some of the considerations for people including the fact that this new legislation really favours people like ourselves who have lived on a lot for a while and allows us to really develop our property easily. And of course, some of the considerations for designing multifamily units, including dealing with neighbours and green parking and everything else. So, it’s been a really great conversation. We really, really appreciate the time you’ve taken to share with us today.
38:44
JL: And I’m taking away thick walls are sexy. And the fact that Mike wants to start a campaign for you to be premier. So, there we go. He’s going to be your campaign manager and away we go. Before we go you’ve already said so many great tidbits, but you give one more piece of advice for people that are maybe looking to jump into this new multifamily exploration.
39:09
Bryn: I would say just give us a call and we can look at your property. We can tell you if there’s any red flags. We can tell you what’s possible in the zoning and show you how that could work for your extended family because it can be a really great option. There you go, red flags.
39:27
JL: Red flags are always sexy. Oh, yeah.
39:29
Bryn: Well, you always got to look. You got to, you know, trees and zoning and power lines. Like there’s always stuff you got to look out in front.
39:36
JL: You know what we didn’t talk about was outdoor kitchens. We’re going to have to have you back for another This time to tie it into the fact that if you are listening or watching at home And you’d like to have an amazing outdoor kitchen boy have we got something for you know you’re already listening or watching this Thank you very much be sure to tell your family tell your friends even people you meet on the street go up to them and Say hey Measure Twice, Cut Once it’s the place to be.
39:56
Mike: Like and share this episode you have a chance to win a Napoleon prestige p500 stainless steel natural gas barbecue valued at $1,600. Courtesy of our podcast partner FortisBC. Details are available on www.HAVAN.ca/measuretwicecutonce .
40:11
JL: Outdoor kitchens are definitely not a red flag for Mike.
Mike: No, no, they are a must-have. They are a must-have.
JL: And for notes and links to everything mentioned on today’s episode, including resources shared by Bryn, go to www.HAVAN.ca/MeasureTwice,CutOnce . Thank you to Trail Appliances, FortisBC, BC Housing, Rami Films, Jpod Creations and AI Technology and Design. It takes a team to build a home, and it also does to build a podcast. Thank you so much for joining us and see you next week.
40:41
Thank you.
REEL: 19:35 – 20:26
‘Its incumbent to realize…. Bryn finishes sentence @ 20:26’
